Very much agree with Benjamin's points. Very confused as to why we're not seeing more evidence of shotgun use against drones. Sound points all around 👍
i would advise to go through some footages as FPV attacks. in case your opponent is an experienced operator with at least 100-150 combat sortiers, your chances without a shotgun are 0%, with shotgun - max 20%.
on final meters FPVs fly at 90-110 km/h, worst case - 60-70km/h. on these speeds they are also maneuvering - 90/180/270/360 degrees and speed varies from 90 to 10 within seconds.
so, you have to be cold blooded man + be lucky + face an unexperienced opponent.
Finally- someone else thinks shotguns are the ideal anti FPV gun! Yay!
I've mentioned this idea in old Twitter debates & seen people completely missing the point, & arguing that a short range shotgun isn't useful against "drones" as they can fly higher.
The shotgun isn't for hitting surveillance drones, that's NOT the argument. A shotgun's short range is only going to be useful against FPVs on final approach.
FPVs now hunt individual soldiers effectively, & once it's seen you, your chances are very slim for avoiding it, unless you're very near good cover. It's very difficult for any other handheld "bullets" gun to hit such a small, fast moving object.
A shotgun fills 40 square inches (1⅓ sq yds) with pellets at 25-40 yards, depending on its amount of choke. That's a good amount of area coverage to enable hitting a fast moving 12 inch diameter drone. A semi auto shotgun should get about 5+ rounds off before the drone is lethal-close, giving you a good chance of a hit.
A shotgun's short range (>60 yards) doesn't count against it, as hitting anything small & moving at those rangea or more, with bullets, handheld, is really unlikely...
The only way to really hit a small 12" drone at longer ranges is with a gattling, or better still, a proximity fused 30-40mm airburst shell. These options require a big vehicle to carry them, so are useless for individual soldiers.
The only other practical handheld individual weapon for anti-fpv is an effective EW jammer. These are starting to appear, but suffer frome reliance on batteries & the ability of the enemy to change frequency. EW jammers are improving, but when they do, I forsee new FPVs configured for wire guidance, which will negate all the EW, at the expense of being shorter ranged, like the TOW ATGMs 3750 meters.
A semi auto shotgun with at least 5 rounds capacity is an ideal close range FPV killer. Plus it's also very useful for close quarters fighting, especially trench clearing. Though it can't penetrate armour vests, a hit there can still knock someone back or over, or 'wind' them, & any pellets that hit the unprotected face, neck or arms, will also likely cause that soldier to temporarily cease fighting as they recoil in pain, drop their weapon, flinch, turn away, etc, & give you the chance of a 2nd, aimed, killer shot that avoids the armour vest.
Yep. You could defend the entrance to trenches and dugouts with it.
Ukraine is already using tech they designed to designate incoming missiles by sound. Why can't that be done with drones? Most have a VERY unique sound. I imagine a piece of portable kit that listens for that unique pitch and whine. It gives you a direction to visually confirm.
dont forget about FPV with remote initiation: 10-20-30m upfront the target.
and FPV mobile teams work completely different: once having shot a FPV from a tranche, this group of defenders will be an object to demolish at all cost.
Having grown up in the British countryside spending much of my time on farms from about 11 years old, I was familiar with shotguns ranging from .410 to 12-bore ("12 gauge" in US speak). Also whilst in Australia a friend of mine had a semi-auto Breda shotgun which I tried briefly. Ever since the drone threat became paramount I've been wondering why shotguns were not being used against them. I wasn't aware that you could buy choke extensions which would probably help in extending the range and effectiveness. It may also be worth pointing out that when thinking of the "business end" of a shotgun discharge there's a tendency to see it as a spreading disc of pellets. It is actually a broadening and lengthening cylinder of pellets.
What is the chance to survive a drone attack with a shotgun? It may be the same as with tanks: if you survive one drone they will send several more until you are hit.
better to beg for life. chance to escape a drone if you were pointed as target is almost 0. especially for orcs - it is not a prob to waste 2-4 drones per head: anyway cost/effectivity balance will be positive
Is the suggestion here that Ukraine just hasn’t thought to test shotguns in the anti-drone role? Because I’m willing to bet they have.
It doesn’t seem like the kind of problem that is solved by just having the right model shotgun or attachments, but much more about if an average soldier can reliably detect and counter (on average) an attacking drone in that limited ~30yard/m engagement window. Drones are incredibly fast and incredibly agile. And FPVs are still currently flown by humans; they definitely do not fly like ducks. And they will become significantly faster and more agile as they become more autonomous. Humans vs ducks is (depending on you definition) fair on the basis of broadly similar neurological and muskuloskelital response times; drones are a different animal. I wonder if shotguns aren’t a romantic but anachronistic solution to a very technical and inherently inhuman problem.
Now put that shotgun on a robotic gimbal with 180degree target tracking and it might be more of a fair fight.
My latest desire is a Beretta 1301 Mod 2. Most of my 100s of waterfowl have fallen to a lowly 30+ year old Remington 870 Express with Krylon paint finish.
I am a life long shotgun hunter. I have hunted geese extensively and I believe they are the closest analog to UAV hunting. I recommend an Ithaca 10 gauge semi auto. These are chambered for 3.5 inch shells. The 10 gauge puts out significantly more shot over a 12 gauge. The recoil is higher but the 10 gauge will kill geese well beyond the range of the 12 gauge (70-100 yards plus straight up) If there are two shotgunners in a squad one could carry the 10 gauge the other the 12 gauge. The 12 gauge is easier to swing and track a target but most UAVs are even slower than geese. So if the 10 gauge doesn’t get it way out then the 12 gauge gunner will have a chance at it. The Ithaca is a hunk but no worse than a lot of stuff carried over the years by soldiers (it’s about the same as the Garand rifle in size and weight). It is also a superb anti personnel weapon close in when firing buck shot or bird shot. See the US army’s world war 1 experience with shotguns in France.
For shooting UAVs I recommend #2 shot, BB, or T shot. As said in the article BIsmuth or tungsten give performance about like lead shot. A good gunner with a full choke can easily hit moving targets at 70 yards with 100 yard shots possible. Lead shot is really the most practical and long range but most off the shelf ammunition in the US will be steel. Bismuth and tungsten are available but very expensive. Training with clay targets can be high quality and quickly identify those who have a knack for it. All off the shelf ammunition will exceed 1200fps and much of the steel ammunition will exceed 1400fps.
Finally, buck shot will give even longer range but the number of pellets drops significantly. Using buckshot on geese at long range/high altitude does result in kills but also a lot of misses.
I thought about the 10 gauge but didn't pursue it because I'm not aware of a tested semiauto platform. Otherwise I agree with you 100%.
I know there was a law enforcement platform in 10 gauge. But I'm not aware of a military application. That said, a quality sporting shotgun can be ruggedized.
Thanks for point this out, because you are definitely correct.
The design rights to the Ithaca 10 gauge were bought by Remington. It’s now known as the Remington SP-10. It was in production until 2010. Highly likely a large order for a ruggedized version with larger magazine would get it going again.
In Ukraine there is probably up 2 mln. shotguns already owned and up to 800K active hunters. So there is plenty of rifles, ammo, and those who can shoot these. So if army sees this as opportunity a policy can quickly be designed to do that. Guns can be requested for military needs, people can be mobilised for anti-drone roles. But this is not happening for some reason.
Excellent report Benjamin. I looked into soldiers v quadrotor drones a decade back. Shotguns came out best. But there are issues.
Drones are 70% space which is different from clays and birds. More pellets will pass through the structure without hitting anything. You need to be closer to take one out.
When game or competition shooting you are alert and have a rough idea of where you are going to shoot. When in a trench or on a vehicle for hours and hours in challenging conditions it is difficult to stay alert and the drone can come from any angle.
The average soldier does not have good shotgun skills.
Have you built an effectiveness model with soldier trials data on fpv drones v shotgun for 5-10 different scenariosl?
I saw a video of a Russian hitting a drone with his AK on the back of his vehicle while escaping, this meant more time as the drone was relatively slower. But the aim on his part was phenomenal
Tungsten turkey load in at least one full tube per 5-10 man group, hell, make that that dudes primary and give them like an aksu or equivalent bitty bitch.
Thanks for the report, but it focuses way too much on gear technicalities and not enough on actual practicality in the realities of this war.
It reads a bit like fanfiction, where someone has analyzed the minute details of which specific gun and ammo configuration would be the best to kill Batman, but hasn't considered the budget constraints of Gotham PD or that getting rid of megalomaniac billionaires is better accomplished through taxation. Quite an American error.
How many person-days would it take to train an average infantryman to shoot shotgun good enough to disable an FPV drone? Won't these drones get better by then? What about nighttime? How common is the encounter with FPV drones (as opposed to the ones dropping grenades or doing recon for arty)? Even if you have properly trained soldiers, will they remember to take shotguns with them and have ammo for them when the need arises?
This is way more important than the make of a shotgun or what particular attachments you can buy for it.
I would rather describe it as "a solution in search of a problem". American and British gun, let's say, enthusiasts really like their clay and skeet shooting and are desperate to apply this hobby to something (anything!) useful in actual combat. So when they saw modern drone warfare, they got excited about finally having an application for their shotguns and their niche skills.
But if a solution requires spending precious training time on teaching conscripts a totally new shooting technique - it's simply not practical. ("This is why just handing out shotguns to untrained personnel is a recipe for a failure.")
From this article I'm convinced that a trained skeet shooter, equipped with an appropriate shotgun, who remembered to take this gun with him and has it easily accessible, who is not otherwise occupied (carrying something, driving, using other type of gun), during daylight, with sufficient forewarning, will most likely shoot down an FPV drone.
But I'm also convinced that introducing shotguns as a system into the current Ukrainian army - will be detrimental. If you spend time on teaching skeet shooting, you won't be able to spend it on more universal skills such as entrenchment, safe movement etc. If you don't spend enough time on shotgun training, you'll have unprepared servicemen, who are encouraged to blast shotguns indiscriminately when they hear something buzzing. They might shoot too early, accidentally shoot at something / someone who they shouldn't (FPV drones don't have to approach from the enemy side after all, they can circle round) etc.
It's a matter of cost/benefit calculation. From the point of view of an army it's better to increase soldiers' survivability across a wide range of situations by providing better digging equipment and camo discipline / training and simply accept that in an unfortunate scenario when an aware soldier stares at an FPV drone that is 30 m away and closing - this person is simply shit out of luck.
You ran a gun shop in America! I can hardly believe it.
Very much agree with Benjamin's points. Very confused as to why we're not seeing more evidence of shotgun use against drones. Sound points all around 👍
I saw a quick Russian video this week of a soldier with a hunting shotgun.
This reminds me of Vietnam where marksmen/snipers sent home for the family deer rifle instead of the military issue weapon they were given.
Well that was because issued ar-15s were messed up by the Armoury and jammed all the time, wasn't it
i would advise to go through some footages as FPV attacks. in case your opponent is an experienced operator with at least 100-150 combat sortiers, your chances without a shotgun are 0%, with shotgun - max 20%.
on final meters FPVs fly at 90-110 km/h, worst case - 60-70km/h. on these speeds they are also maneuvering - 90/180/270/360 degrees and speed varies from 90 to 10 within seconds.
so, you have to be cold blooded man + be lucky + face an unexperienced opponent.
otherwise you are dead - with shotgun or not.
Finally- someone else thinks shotguns are the ideal anti FPV gun! Yay!
I've mentioned this idea in old Twitter debates & seen people completely missing the point, & arguing that a short range shotgun isn't useful against "drones" as they can fly higher.
The shotgun isn't for hitting surveillance drones, that's NOT the argument. A shotgun's short range is only going to be useful against FPVs on final approach.
FPVs now hunt individual soldiers effectively, & once it's seen you, your chances are very slim for avoiding it, unless you're very near good cover. It's very difficult for any other handheld "bullets" gun to hit such a small, fast moving object.
A shotgun fills 40 square inches (1⅓ sq yds) with pellets at 25-40 yards, depending on its amount of choke. That's a good amount of area coverage to enable hitting a fast moving 12 inch diameter drone. A semi auto shotgun should get about 5+ rounds off before the drone is lethal-close, giving you a good chance of a hit.
A shotgun's short range (>60 yards) doesn't count against it, as hitting anything small & moving at those rangea or more, with bullets, handheld, is really unlikely...
The only way to really hit a small 12" drone at longer ranges is with a gattling, or better still, a proximity fused 30-40mm airburst shell. These options require a big vehicle to carry them, so are useless for individual soldiers.
The only other practical handheld individual weapon for anti-fpv is an effective EW jammer. These are starting to appear, but suffer frome reliance on batteries & the ability of the enemy to change frequency. EW jammers are improving, but when they do, I forsee new FPVs configured for wire guidance, which will negate all the EW, at the expense of being shorter ranged, like the TOW ATGMs 3750 meters.
A semi auto shotgun with at least 5 rounds capacity is an ideal close range FPV killer. Plus it's also very useful for close quarters fighting, especially trench clearing. Though it can't penetrate armour vests, a hit there can still knock someone back or over, or 'wind' them, & any pellets that hit the unprotected face, neck or arms, will also likely cause that soldier to temporarily cease fighting as they recoil in pain, drop their weapon, flinch, turn away, etc, & give you the chance of a 2nd, aimed, killer shot that avoids the armour vest.
What about a buckshot-version of the Metal Storm? Would be fun, I think.
Yep. You could defend the entrance to trenches and dugouts with it.
Ukraine is already using tech they designed to designate incoming missiles by sound. Why can't that be done with drones? Most have a VERY unique sound. I imagine a piece of portable kit that listens for that unique pitch and whine. It gives you a direction to visually confirm.
Drones will likely differ in sound.
And you won't have much time to react anyway.
dont forget about FPV with remote initiation: 10-20-30m upfront the target.
and FPV mobile teams work completely different: once having shot a FPV from a tranche, this group of defenders will be an object to demolish at all cost.
Metal Storm, perfect.
Having grown up in the British countryside spending much of my time on farms from about 11 years old, I was familiar with shotguns ranging from .410 to 12-bore ("12 gauge" in US speak). Also whilst in Australia a friend of mine had a semi-auto Breda shotgun which I tried briefly. Ever since the drone threat became paramount I've been wondering why shotguns were not being used against them. I wasn't aware that you could buy choke extensions which would probably help in extending the range and effectiveness. It may also be worth pointing out that when thinking of the "business end" of a shotgun discharge there's a tendency to see it as a spreading disc of pellets. It is actually a broadening and lengthening cylinder of pellets.
What is the chance to survive a drone attack with a shotgun? It may be the same as with tanks: if you survive one drone they will send several more until you are hit.
That is a risk no matter what weapon you use isnt it? But it requires the Enemy to have a large supply of drones.
That is a matter of chance to hit. If the chance to hit the drone is low, it's better to run.
Yes, hence the need for training. You need to have a decent chance of hitting, otherwise no one will try.
better to beg for life. chance to escape a drone if you were pointed as target is almost 0. especially for orcs - it is not a prob to waste 2-4 drones per head: anyway cost/effectivity balance will be positive
Is the suggestion here that Ukraine just hasn’t thought to test shotguns in the anti-drone role? Because I’m willing to bet they have.
It doesn’t seem like the kind of problem that is solved by just having the right model shotgun or attachments, but much more about if an average soldier can reliably detect and counter (on average) an attacking drone in that limited ~30yard/m engagement window. Drones are incredibly fast and incredibly agile. And FPVs are still currently flown by humans; they definitely do not fly like ducks. And they will become significantly faster and more agile as they become more autonomous. Humans vs ducks is (depending on you definition) fair on the basis of broadly similar neurological and muskuloskelital response times; drones are a different animal. I wonder if shotguns aren’t a romantic but anachronistic solution to a very technical and inherently inhuman problem.
Now put that shotgun on a robotic gimbal with 180degree target tracking and it might be more of a fair fight.
The first doesnt reject the second?
Thanks for this detailed and interesting analysis. Really appreciate this extension of the team!
Thanks very much for this report Benjamin
My latest desire is a Beretta 1301 Mod 2. Most of my 100s of waterfowl have fallen to a lowly 30+ year old Remington 870 Express with Krylon paint finish.
I am a life long shotgun hunter. I have hunted geese extensively and I believe they are the closest analog to UAV hunting. I recommend an Ithaca 10 gauge semi auto. These are chambered for 3.5 inch shells. The 10 gauge puts out significantly more shot over a 12 gauge. The recoil is higher but the 10 gauge will kill geese well beyond the range of the 12 gauge (70-100 yards plus straight up) If there are two shotgunners in a squad one could carry the 10 gauge the other the 12 gauge. The 12 gauge is easier to swing and track a target but most UAVs are even slower than geese. So if the 10 gauge doesn’t get it way out then the 12 gauge gunner will have a chance at it. The Ithaca is a hunk but no worse than a lot of stuff carried over the years by soldiers (it’s about the same as the Garand rifle in size and weight). It is also a superb anti personnel weapon close in when firing buck shot or bird shot. See the US army’s world war 1 experience with shotguns in France.
For shooting UAVs I recommend #2 shot, BB, or T shot. As said in the article BIsmuth or tungsten give performance about like lead shot. A good gunner with a full choke can easily hit moving targets at 70 yards with 100 yard shots possible. Lead shot is really the most practical and long range but most off the shelf ammunition in the US will be steel. Bismuth and tungsten are available but very expensive. Training with clay targets can be high quality and quickly identify those who have a knack for it. All off the shelf ammunition will exceed 1200fps and much of the steel ammunition will exceed 1400fps.
Finally, buck shot will give even longer range but the number of pellets drops significantly. Using buckshot on geese at long range/high altitude does result in kills but also a lot of misses.
I thought about the 10 gauge but didn't pursue it because I'm not aware of a tested semiauto platform. Otherwise I agree with you 100%.
I know there was a law enforcement platform in 10 gauge. But I'm not aware of a military application. That said, a quality sporting shotgun can be ruggedized.
Thanks for point this out, because you are definitely correct.
The design rights to the Ithaca 10 gauge were bought by Remington. It’s now known as the Remington SP-10. It was in production until 2010. Highly likely a large order for a ruggedized version with larger magazine would get it going again.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Mag-10
In Ukraine there is probably up 2 mln. shotguns already owned and up to 800K active hunters. So there is plenty of rifles, ammo, and those who can shoot these. So if army sees this as opportunity a policy can quickly be designed to do that. Guns can be requested for military needs, people can be mobilised for anti-drone roles. But this is not happening for some reason.
I wouldn't say it's NOT happening. I would say it's happening slowly.
Excellent report Benjamin. I looked into soldiers v quadrotor drones a decade back. Shotguns came out best. But there are issues.
Drones are 70% space which is different from clays and birds. More pellets will pass through the structure without hitting anything. You need to be closer to take one out.
When game or competition shooting you are alert and have a rough idea of where you are going to shoot. When in a trench or on a vehicle for hours and hours in challenging conditions it is difficult to stay alert and the drone can come from any angle.
The average soldier does not have good shotgun skills.
Have you built an effectiveness model with soldier trials data on fpv drones v shotgun for 5-10 different scenariosl?
You are correct, the best system in the world for shooting down UAVs doesn't do anything for spotting them. That's another topic for another day.
I saw a video of a Russian hitting a drone with his AK on the back of his vehicle while escaping, this meant more time as the drone was relatively slower. But the aim on his part was phenomenal
Tungsten turkey load in at least one full tube per 5-10 man group, hell, make that that dudes primary and give them like an aksu or equivalent bitty bitch.
Thanks for the report, but it focuses way too much on gear technicalities and not enough on actual practicality in the realities of this war.
It reads a bit like fanfiction, where someone has analyzed the minute details of which specific gun and ammo configuration would be the best to kill Batman, but hasn't considered the budget constraints of Gotham PD or that getting rid of megalomaniac billionaires is better accomplished through taxation. Quite an American error.
How many person-days would it take to train an average infantryman to shoot shotgun good enough to disable an FPV drone? Won't these drones get better by then? What about nighttime? How common is the encounter with FPV drones (as opposed to the ones dropping grenades or doing recon for arty)? Even if you have properly trained soldiers, will they remember to take shotguns with them and have ammo for them when the need arises?
This is way more important than the make of a shotgun or what particular attachments you can buy for it.
"Fanfiction/fantasy" has a long history of becoming reality. Like... the drone itself. Or satellites and GPS.
I think you're are allowing perfect to be the enemy of good. Perfection paralysis.
I would rather describe it as "a solution in search of a problem". American and British gun, let's say, enthusiasts really like their clay and skeet shooting and are desperate to apply this hobby to something (anything!) useful in actual combat. So when they saw modern drone warfare, they got excited about finally having an application for their shotguns and their niche skills.
But if a solution requires spending precious training time on teaching conscripts a totally new shooting technique - it's simply not practical. ("This is why just handing out shotguns to untrained personnel is a recipe for a failure.")
From this article I'm convinced that a trained skeet shooter, equipped with an appropriate shotgun, who remembered to take this gun with him and has it easily accessible, who is not otherwise occupied (carrying something, driving, using other type of gun), during daylight, with sufficient forewarning, will most likely shoot down an FPV drone.
But I'm also convinced that introducing shotguns as a system into the current Ukrainian army - will be detrimental. If you spend time on teaching skeet shooting, you won't be able to spend it on more universal skills such as entrenchment, safe movement etc. If you don't spend enough time on shotgun training, you'll have unprepared servicemen, who are encouraged to blast shotguns indiscriminately when they hear something buzzing. They might shoot too early, accidentally shoot at something / someone who they shouldn't (FPV drones don't have to approach from the enemy side after all, they can circle round) etc.
It's a matter of cost/benefit calculation. From the point of view of an army it's better to increase soldiers' survivability across a wide range of situations by providing better digging equipment and camo discipline / training and simply accept that in an unfortunate scenario when an aware soldier stares at an FPV drone that is 30 m away and closing - this person is simply shit out of luck.
Welcome to the insane asylum....
We're FINE....we're all FINE crazy people down here.... How are you???