The lazy defence building often is learned in training as the soldiers are then required to dismantle the defences at the end of training. As they don't need to concern themselves with this, one would have thought the Ukraine Army trained and led well enough to build better.
There are very tired soldiers in the Ukrainian army. Some have been on the front line with periodic rest for two years. That will wear you down. Sustainment is a basic requirement for a army and that includes trying to rest people as much as possible.
There is every hope that the Russian advance can be halted. The Russian army has their own issues. Ukrainian and allied production is increasing. Russian equipment is being destroyed faster than it can be produced, and Russian artillery is wearing out with an acute shortage of replacement barrels.
As frustrating the Russian advances and Ukrainian shortcomings are, the Russian issues are even bigger.
I'm not sure disaster is the right word. It wouldn't be great, but its not like the whole line caves in. Some parts of the line may need to pull back, but not the entire thing.
Well, it's not fallen yet. And may not for a very long time. It's fascinating how this demoralising talking point pops up seemingly out of nowhere in so many threads. Negative stories capture our attention more than positive ones, and subtle Russian disinformation warfare targets us in this way. Ask yourself where you heard or why you are so certain Russia will capture Prokovsk? There's no evidence either way yet.
The BBC, just for one instance this moment, has a headline referring to ‘the key city of Pokrovsk’. That sort of thing, plus the slightly downbeat tone of this report, prompted me to ask the question. I’m aware that there is a school of thought which says that Russian gains are meaningless seizures of vegetation and rubble, which one day will be negated when the Western aid finally, really, seriously arrives. If you say that Pokrovsk is not really ‘the key’ to anything much I shall be glad to hear that. If the battle finally goes the Ukrainian way, unlike Bakhmut or Adviivka, I will be thrilled. It was with that in mind that I asked whether the new tranche of Western weapons would make a difference. How I hope they do
Yeah, I take your point. If you follow what's happening close enough you get a sense of when reporters drift away from the facts on the ground towards what Russian trolls are selling online (even here). Russian information warfare has always targeted news outlets because of their magnifying power. They've been doing it for more than a century and it appears to be the only thing they are really good at. These last few months they've turned from scaring everyone about the threat of Russian nuclear retaliation if 'provoked' by NATO to selling the demoralising vibe that Russia has too many soldiers, tanks, industry, and way too much money for Ukraine to stand a chance of winning. I guess that's what I was reacting to. If it's not countered it just spreads further.
Russians used to be good diggers. Have read Russian field manuals from late WWII where you have specific timetables on digging in, from infantry to equipment, that soldiers and crew were suppose to follow before inspection and sleep.
As soon as you stopped for the day - picks and shovels.
Recall one German account where the author were watching the Russians through the binoculars literally ‘sinking in to the ground’. Always use that as reference.
I would not blame the grunts too much as I believe that much knowledge (discipline) in constructing defensive strong points and trench lines disappeared in Europe in the 60’s when nukes, mobile warfare and CAS took over. There were however lots of digging in Nam.
Germans excelled at it in WWII eastern front but seems to have been discredited by western historians much due to overstretched lines and lack of personnel (+ artillery and ammunition…, well everything) and high command incompetence (OKH/OKW) to be put it into full effect. Still they managed to hold off 7-1 to 14-1 disadvantages for limited periods in contested sectors.
Interesting to see that once air power is removed (contested) you are back to basics, even if its 2020’s.
Damn right it does. This should be a simple fix, it really should be. A simple visit by the BN CO to the Companies and some ass-chewing. Then he comes back, and more ass-chewing and some shit details for the guys who didn't get it. Next time, new COs. That was how my boss did it (he was a 3 strikes guy, loved baseball), and we were in the artillery. But he was solid on it. If we were moving within 12 hours, and maneuvering, not so much. But on the defensive? If you knew you were in a spot for at least 24 hours you had to have some hasty fps dug, longer meant full up stuff. The Infantry guys were even more fired up about it. This is really basic stuff and all it needs is someone to do some visiting and butt-kicking and it rolls downhill.
This supposes that the officers know what are doing and can teach their NCOs and soldiers. And that there are enough soldiers for manning the line, doing recon and building rear fortifications. And that these soldiers are covered with fire and are not blown to pieces 5 km on the rear while digging.
Some profesional soldiers can do all these but forced recruits do not.
I learned to dig a two man fighting position with overhead cover in one day. I learned how to tie it into a defensive line with overlapping fields of fire the next day. It's not hard, you just have to do it. The days of volunteers being shoved to the front with little prep are done, the troops are getting trained prior. But this area needs works. And once you show a recruit how this improves his chances of surviving he will dig
Mike, the Ukrainian profesional soldiers know their job ver well. They have built-in a strong long and deep defensive line în Donbas. The Russians have cut their teeth în that line and they have neede 2.5 years of murderous bombardamente to brate it.
These profesional soldiers are mostly gone now. The new recruits are not trained, not motivated and not allowed to learn. They are under heavy pressure trom frontline to 10km in the rear.
How are the troops not trained? I keep hearing about various training efforts and I know that the UA is working hard to provide new trained Soldiers. I keep hearing about the fodder the Russian conscripts who get sent with only a few weeks of training, are the UA worse off than that? I find that hard to believe, but if you can show me, I'd be appreciative of it.
The training period for Ukrainian soldiers is very dependent on their unit. Some get 2 weeks and shoot 10 rounds. Others get 1 month with some training on trench digging, movement and radio usage.
Okay, I need to dig a bit on this. What you are talking about is what we would call "Unit Training". I'm talking about Basic Training, the training that each Soldier gets when inducted into the service. Just so I'm clear on this, what you are saying is that Ukraine doesn't do any Basic Training, you just get sent to the unit and get whatever training you get there. I'm asking because that differed from what I saw when I was there where there was a type of basic training prior to being sent to units. If there is not, that is the start of the problem. When I was in, I learned to dig in my basic training, if there isn't any, that's where the issue starts. Thank you for the information above.
Where did you learn all that? On exercises. Hastily-trained units rushed to the front don't have that advantage if all they're doing is rotating in and out of the lines. I just hope that they get a break to refresh and retrain. Like you say, it's pretty basic but it's easy to learn in peacetime, maybe harder whilst under fire. It's possible NCOs and officers don't want to push inexperienced soldiers too hard.
You have to push, you have no choice. If they don't push, they die. That sucks, it flat out sucks, but you have to make them hate you and get it done. They will understand when it happens. The best commander I had I hated because he had no mercy and never let up. You got no rest and he burned out people. But he taught me more than any other CO ever did. Would youren rather be tired or dead? Rommel said that about the pace of digging in in France prior to DDay and it holds true.
Mike, you are absolutely right, but did you learn to do that whilst under fire? Really intense bombardment? Maybe a basement with no loopholes might become attractive then. And when you're rotated out, you might be too shell-shocked to do anything meaningful. Give them a break, it's frustrating but they're doing a great job.
The ZSU should have hired you back in 2014 when the trench warfare started. They might have had a culture of digging in by now. I bet the veteran untis do.
I was there in 2017 as an advisor. I'm not having an issue with the Soldiers, I'm having an issue with the leaders who should be able to push this. Learning to dig a hole is not that hard, making people do it can be. Learning where to dig is bit more difficult, but that is why you need to train the junior leaders. And you and I agree, the really good units DO this. But again, it should not be this hard to fix even in bad ones if you get rid of the bad leaders or force them to do their jobs. The Units are not on the front line continually, they do rotate, when they do you can do some training or at least pull everyone together and lay down the law. I still find it hard to believe that units have not figured this out yet. When this war got hot again, back in September 22 I think I read a quote from a trooper that said "If you want to live, you dig". Still true obviously and you'd think it would be very apparent. But as we see, not so.
Mike, reading your conversations with others, my thoughts are that even without sufficient training (and the resulting defenses being sub-standard), such defenses would still offer benefit over not doing anything with one's idle time. It seems to me that the most important thing to implement is the culture of dig-defend-sleep. As you say, implementing such is about ass-kicking (not rocket science).
Yes. I was a force protection officer for an FOB in Iraq. While certainly not this level, I was constantly having to change and improve our defenses against car bombs, indirect fire, snipers and so on. You simply cannot just say "We are good" and call it a day. The enemy will always be watching and strike when your guard is down. "Water Sleeps, but Enemy Never Rests" is so true (from the Black Company series, but we used the saying at Fort Riley when training units headed out to Iraq). Any hole is better than none, a proper hole is better than any hole, a proper bunker is better than a proper hole, etc. You just need to be the asshole and make people work. Even if it's on the job training, you can still dig and someone can always tell you where. But hopefully its the right place, don't be the guy who had the machine gunner work for 18 hours on his position and then say he had to move it. My personal experience was 4 hours of digging a hasty positions for a 2 man machine gun position (I was the AG), and then when the fight started we had to display and move 50 meters to the left because the PL hadn't done his recon well and we had a gap.
Yes, you’re completely right. The ZSU is making a series of systematic mistakes from the start of the war. Nobody wants to admit their mistakes and go on in the right way. This is a style of the Soviet management. The ZSU doesn’t have the NATO standards in the management. Now let me explain. I didn’t meet any one person in the Territorial Defense or the Mechanized brigades who had any idea how to build, keep in order and repair the field fortifications. Everyone knows about trenches but knows nothing about dummy trenches, barbed wire, antivehicular ditches and many other engineer structures. No one realises how important it is. Most people think that a chain of trenches is enough for success. The American Field Manuals 5-15, 5-34, 5-103 refused completely.
This is an issue of the expansion of Ukrainian army. Competent officers, NCOs and soldiers are promoted to the level where they become incompetent. There is always a new brigade or independent batalion which needs staff members.
The soldiers are no longer volunteers but civilians hunted on the street and given 2 weeks of dismal training. A wound or Russian captivity are improvements for them.
The Ukrainian civilians drown în the river Tisa or are shot by the borderguards. They freeze to the death în the Carpathians during winter. They do this just to avoid the frontline.
Russia still has 6500 POW after several exchanges even though the only encirclement was Mariupol.
Captivity for a civilian thrown în a uniform means lack of bombs, snipers and mines.
There are no volunteers in the recruitment offices. People sell everything to bribe the military recruiters or to pay guides for a border crossing. Guess what are these soldiers going to do when hard presed. They have no love for the army.
Let's hope this short coming doesn't become an over-exploited Achilles heel for Ukraine. Fortunately the russian military is slow to adapt to the short comings of their enemies.
To quote Wellington "They came on in the same old way, and we sent them back in the same old way."
Let's hope they keep doing that, and contributing to their own defeat 👍
As a student at Colorado School of Mines back in 1972 i came across a book that apparently would be of value to some, at least, of the officers in the Ukrainian Army -
BATTLE OF BOOBY'S BLUFFS : THE ATTACK AND DEFENSE
List, Major Single
Published by THE SOCIETY OF AMERICAN MILITARY ENGINEERS, 1928.
Based on writing by British officers on lessons from the Boer War -
All are written as the experience of a young officer presented with a tactical problem first of offense and then defense. In a series of 'dreams' he learns by experience how to conduct both an attack and a defense.
Considering the fact that the war in Ukraine has in large part devolved into a 'positional' war the lessons (at least on the defense) are still appropriate.
Of course as repeated multiple times in this update, the primary lesson is 'dig in...'
I perceive that this is a "come as you are war," on both sides. On the Ukrainian side, I see older men in combat roles that the U.S. assigns normally to young guys--teens and 20s--some of whom may seem "dumb as $hit," but have strong backs for the back-breaking work of a combat infantryman. Obiviously this includes lots of digging. Even older men in good physical condition are not gonna perform the grunt work nearly as well as well trained and lead "babies." Of course, senior Ukrainian military leadership is called for, competent leadership. Nonetheless, Ukraine still has to deal with older men who perform the work of "babies," and valiantly so in my perception. I just don't think that this problem will go way substantially under current conditions, even with improved leadership.
I am no expert in military trench digging but I did grow up on a farm. I think without power equipment it is unrealistic to expect combat soldiers to dig trenches at the scale and standards of modern warfare. Maybe a solitary foxhole in a forward position. The rest should be done by support troops with engineering equipment. Combat troops should practice their equipment and get plenty of rest
I am from Eastern Europe and we like to complain A LOT. I think if we heard directly from the Ukrainian engineer corps they would tell us that hey have a list of priorities and a schedule.
Armies do have combat engineers to dig defensive positions with power equipment. Combat engineers or their equivalent have been doing this very thing for centuries (w/o power equipment)! I think that which applies to the original post is about troops taking over an area and having to prepare trenches and fortifications "on the fly." Happens in all wars. Ukraine apparently has also been deficient at times with forward thinking by failing to prepare professionally dug positions and redoubts and other flanking defensive positions in advance of possible need (as in the case of a strategic or tactical defeat).
Addendum to my previous post - in WWII on the Eastern Front German infantry in villages where the houses were of wooden construction without full basements would dig out under the floors creating firing slits at ground level. They placed the excavated earth on the floors above to increase protection from overhead fire.
This could be done in more hasty defences in the current fighting as well.
What O'Leary writes implies a lack of seriousness from Ukrainian brass, not something you'd expect 2.5 years into this, and having built a good fortification line after 2014. But when old units don't get replacements and supplies, so they can create new brigades, the brass must be afraid to push them hard. Thing is, if they want to win, they have to do better.
It doesn't matter of the Ukrainian soldier is professional or drafted. This should be a skill taught in basic training, a nationalized standard that Ukraine lacks.
We'd patrol in the woods with heavy rucksacks and weapons and if we were there for 12 hours we'd dig in. Even if we were tired. It might seem compassionate to let tired men rest, but if the tired men are not protected then they are less likely to go home. Compassionate leaders protect their soldiers by insisting that they dig in.
Professional soldiers or drafted soldiers, digging in is a basic skill, just as firing a rifle is a basic skill. It should be taught in a nationally standardized training environment, which Ukraine does not have.
Digging in under fire has happened in wars for centuries. It just much easier to build a trench system with logs and sandbags when you're not under fire. Do you remember the example of digging positions in Marinka? They did that while under fire.
If the argument is that you don't have enough troops to man the line, then the line will not hold no matter how will you entrench because the enemy will find the avenue of approach that is not being covered by observation and fire and attack any positions you do have from the flanks and rear. I refer you back to the 47th Brigade video. https://x.com/AndrewPerpetua/status/1824739152924991696
It doesn't matter if you're old or young. Those Roman soldiers marched and dug at 45 years old. Life is easier when you're young but you still dig.
The lazy defence building often is learned in training as the soldiers are then required to dismantle the defences at the end of training. As they don't need to concern themselves with this, one would have thought the Ukraine Army trained and led well enough to build better.
Is the Ukrainian army getting tired - I ask with some dread. Is there any reasonable hope that the Russian advance can be halted?
There are very tired soldiers in the Ukrainian army. Some have been on the front line with periodic rest for two years. That will wear you down. Sustainment is a basic requirement for a army and that includes trying to rest people as much as possible.
There is every hope that the Russian advance can be halted. The Russian army has their own issues. Ukrainian and allied production is increasing. Russian equipment is being destroyed faster than it can be produced, and Russian artillery is wearing out with an acute shortage of replacement barrels.
As frustrating the Russian advances and Ukrainian shortcomings are, the Russian issues are even bigger.
Thanks, I was starting to feel a bit miserable
How disastrous will the Russian capture of Prokovsk be?
There seem to be newly arriving weapons from the West. Will they help?
I'm not sure disaster is the right word. It wouldn't be great, but its not like the whole line caves in. Some parts of the line may need to pull back, but not the entire thing.
Well, it's not fallen yet. And may not for a very long time. It's fascinating how this demoralising talking point pops up seemingly out of nowhere in so many threads. Negative stories capture our attention more than positive ones, and subtle Russian disinformation warfare targets us in this way. Ask yourself where you heard or why you are so certain Russia will capture Prokovsk? There's no evidence either way yet.
The BBC, just for one instance this moment, has a headline referring to ‘the key city of Pokrovsk’. That sort of thing, plus the slightly downbeat tone of this report, prompted me to ask the question. I’m aware that there is a school of thought which says that Russian gains are meaningless seizures of vegetation and rubble, which one day will be negated when the Western aid finally, really, seriously arrives. If you say that Pokrovsk is not really ‘the key’ to anything much I shall be glad to hear that. If the battle finally goes the Ukrainian way, unlike Bakhmut or Adviivka, I will be thrilled. It was with that in mind that I asked whether the new tranche of Western weapons would make a difference. How I hope they do
It's similar to Bakhmut - a key logistics node. Bakhmut was captured, the Ukrainian line in the region fell back 10 or 20 km. That's it.
Yeah, I take your point. If you follow what's happening close enough you get a sense of when reporters drift away from the facts on the ground towards what Russian trolls are selling online (even here). Russian information warfare has always targeted news outlets because of their magnifying power. They've been doing it for more than a century and it appears to be the only thing they are really good at. These last few months they've turned from scaring everyone about the threat of Russian nuclear retaliation if 'provoked' by NATO to selling the demoralising vibe that Russia has too many soldiers, tanks, industry, and way too much money for Ukraine to stand a chance of winning. I guess that's what I was reacting to. If it's not countered it just spreads further.
I just hopped over to Professor O’Brien’s Ukraine substack, which cheered me up a bit. I noted that Chasiv Yar holds!
Russians used to be good diggers. Have read Russian field manuals from late WWII where you have specific timetables on digging in, from infantry to equipment, that soldiers and crew were suppose to follow before inspection and sleep.
As soon as you stopped for the day - picks and shovels.
Recall one German account where the author were watching the Russians through the binoculars literally ‘sinking in to the ground’. Always use that as reference.
I would not blame the grunts too much as I believe that much knowledge (discipline) in constructing defensive strong points and trench lines disappeared in Europe in the 60’s when nukes, mobile warfare and CAS took over. There were however lots of digging in Nam.
Germans excelled at it in WWII eastern front but seems to have been discredited by western historians much due to overstretched lines and lack of personnel (+ artillery and ammunition…, well everything) and high command incompetence (OKH/OKW) to be put it into full effect. Still they managed to hold off 7-1 to 14-1 disadvantages for limited periods in contested sectors.
Interesting to see that once air power is removed (contested) you are back to basics, even if its 2020’s.
Damn right it does. This should be a simple fix, it really should be. A simple visit by the BN CO to the Companies and some ass-chewing. Then he comes back, and more ass-chewing and some shit details for the guys who didn't get it. Next time, new COs. That was how my boss did it (he was a 3 strikes guy, loved baseball), and we were in the artillery. But he was solid on it. If we were moving within 12 hours, and maneuvering, not so much. But on the defensive? If you knew you were in a spot for at least 24 hours you had to have some hasty fps dug, longer meant full up stuff. The Infantry guys were even more fired up about it. This is really basic stuff and all it needs is someone to do some visiting and butt-kicking and it rolls downhill.
This supposes that the officers know what are doing and can teach their NCOs and soldiers. And that there are enough soldiers for manning the line, doing recon and building rear fortifications. And that these soldiers are covered with fire and are not blown to pieces 5 km on the rear while digging.
Some profesional soldiers can do all these but forced recruits do not.
I learned to dig a two man fighting position with overhead cover in one day. I learned how to tie it into a defensive line with overlapping fields of fire the next day. It's not hard, you just have to do it. The days of volunteers being shoved to the front with little prep are done, the troops are getting trained prior. But this area needs works. And once you show a recruit how this improves his chances of surviving he will dig
Mike, the Ukrainian profesional soldiers know their job ver well. They have built-in a strong long and deep defensive line în Donbas. The Russians have cut their teeth în that line and they have neede 2.5 years of murderous bombardamente to brate it.
These profesional soldiers are mostly gone now. The new recruits are not trained, not motivated and not allowed to learn. They are under heavy pressure trom frontline to 10km in the rear.
How are the troops not trained? I keep hearing about various training efforts and I know that the UA is working hard to provide new trained Soldiers. I keep hearing about the fodder the Russian conscripts who get sent with only a few weeks of training, are the UA worse off than that? I find that hard to believe, but if you can show me, I'd be appreciative of it.
The training period for Ukrainian soldiers is very dependent on their unit. Some get 2 weeks and shoot 10 rounds. Others get 1 month with some training on trench digging, movement and radio usage.
Okay, I need to dig a bit on this. What you are talking about is what we would call "Unit Training". I'm talking about Basic Training, the training that each Soldier gets when inducted into the service. Just so I'm clear on this, what you are saying is that Ukraine doesn't do any Basic Training, you just get sent to the unit and get whatever training you get there. I'm asking because that differed from what I saw when I was there where there was a type of basic training prior to being sent to units. If there is not, that is the start of the problem. When I was in, I learned to dig in my basic training, if there isn't any, that's where the issue starts. Thank you for the information above.
Where did you learn all that? On exercises. Hastily-trained units rushed to the front don't have that advantage if all they're doing is rotating in and out of the lines. I just hope that they get a break to refresh and retrain. Like you say, it's pretty basic but it's easy to learn in peacetime, maybe harder whilst under fire. It's possible NCOs and officers don't want to push inexperienced soldiers too hard.
You have to push, you have no choice. If they don't push, they die. That sucks, it flat out sucks, but you have to make them hate you and get it done. They will understand when it happens. The best commander I had I hated because he had no mercy and never let up. You got no rest and he burned out people. But he taught me more than any other CO ever did. Would youren rather be tired or dead? Rommel said that about the pace of digging in in France prior to DDay and it holds true.
Mike, you are absolutely right, but did you learn to do that whilst under fire? Really intense bombardment? Maybe a basement with no loopholes might become attractive then. And when you're rotated out, you might be too shell-shocked to do anything meaningful. Give them a break, it's frustrating but they're doing a great job.
The ZSU should have hired you back in 2014 when the trench warfare started. They might have had a culture of digging in by now. I bet the veteran untis do.
I was there in 2017 as an advisor. I'm not having an issue with the Soldiers, I'm having an issue with the leaders who should be able to push this. Learning to dig a hole is not that hard, making people do it can be. Learning where to dig is bit more difficult, but that is why you need to train the junior leaders. And you and I agree, the really good units DO this. But again, it should not be this hard to fix even in bad ones if you get rid of the bad leaders or force them to do their jobs. The Units are not on the front line continually, they do rotate, when they do you can do some training or at least pull everyone together and lay down the law. I still find it hard to believe that units have not figured this out yet. When this war got hot again, back in September 22 I think I read a quote from a trooper that said "If you want to live, you dig". Still true obviously and you'd think it would be very apparent. But as we see, not so.
Fair enough. I wish it were so too.
Mike, reading your conversations with others, my thoughts are that even without sufficient training (and the resulting defenses being sub-standard), such defenses would still offer benefit over not doing anything with one's idle time. It seems to me that the most important thing to implement is the culture of dig-defend-sleep. As you say, implementing such is about ass-kicking (not rocket science).
Yes. I was a force protection officer for an FOB in Iraq. While certainly not this level, I was constantly having to change and improve our defenses against car bombs, indirect fire, snipers and so on. You simply cannot just say "We are good" and call it a day. The enemy will always be watching and strike when your guard is down. "Water Sleeps, but Enemy Never Rests" is so true (from the Black Company series, but we used the saying at Fort Riley when training units headed out to Iraq). Any hole is better than none, a proper hole is better than any hole, a proper bunker is better than a proper hole, etc. You just need to be the asshole and make people work. Even if it's on the job training, you can still dig and someone can always tell you where. But hopefully its the right place, don't be the guy who had the machine gunner work for 18 hours on his position and then say he had to move it. My personal experience was 4 hours of digging a hasty positions for a 2 man machine gun position (I was the AG), and then when the fight started we had to display and move 50 meters to the left because the PL hadn't done his recon well and we had a gap.
Yes, you’re completely right. The ZSU is making a series of systematic mistakes from the start of the war. Nobody wants to admit their mistakes and go on in the right way. This is a style of the Soviet management. The ZSU doesn’t have the NATO standards in the management. Now let me explain. I didn’t meet any one person in the Territorial Defense or the Mechanized brigades who had any idea how to build, keep in order and repair the field fortifications. Everyone knows about trenches but knows nothing about dummy trenches, barbed wire, antivehicular ditches and many other engineer structures. No one realises how important it is. Most people think that a chain of trenches is enough for success. The American Field Manuals 5-15, 5-34, 5-103 refused completely.
https://i.imgur.com/K6KpNnq.png How to repair trenches FM 5-15
https://i.imgur.com/nvBPx5E.png How to build trenches in a right way FM 5-15
By the way....
Nena and her 99 red balloons were wright. She walk through, and nothing have happend. She's in our hearts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpu5a0Bl8eY
A joke! Nena and her baloons on the field.
This is an issue of the expansion of Ukrainian army. Competent officers, NCOs and soldiers are promoted to the level where they become incompetent. There is always a new brigade or independent batalion which needs staff members.
The soldiers are no longer volunteers but civilians hunted on the street and given 2 weeks of dismal training. A wound or Russian captivity are improvements for them.
Russian captivity is an improvement??!!!! You serious?!
The Ukrainian civilians drown în the river Tisa or are shot by the borderguards. They freeze to the death în the Carpathians during winter. They do this just to avoid the frontline.
Russia still has 6500 POW after several exchanges even though the only encirclement was Mariupol.
Captivity for a civilian thrown în a uniform means lack of bombs, snipers and mines.
That’s taking sarcasm too far … because you’re either not being serious or a troll of some sort.
There are no volunteers in the recruitment offices. People sell everything to bribe the military recruiters or to pay guides for a border crossing. Guess what are these soldiers going to do when hard presed. They have no love for the army.
Let's hope this short coming doesn't become an over-exploited Achilles heel for Ukraine. Fortunately the russian military is slow to adapt to the short comings of their enemies.
To quote Wellington "They came on in the same old way, and we sent them back in the same old way."
Let's hope they keep doing that, and contributing to their own defeat 👍
One of the best Wellington quotes!
Nice video (with English subtitles) of Ukrainian soldiers handing out food to Russian citizens.
https://x.com/i/status/1825513965943705704
As a student at Colorado School of Mines back in 1972 i came across a book that apparently would be of value to some, at least, of the officers in the Ukrainian Army -
BATTLE OF BOOBY'S BLUFFS : THE ATTACK AND DEFENSE
List, Major Single
Published by THE SOCIETY OF AMERICAN MILITARY ENGINEERS, 1928.
Based on writing by British officers on lessons from the Boer War -
http://www.regimentalrogue.com/boobysbluffs/booby0.htm
http://www.regimentalrogue.com/duffersdrift/Duffers_Drift.htm
with additions based on experience from WWI.
All are written as the experience of a young officer presented with a tactical problem first of offense and then defense. In a series of 'dreams' he learns by experience how to conduct both an attack and a defense.
Considering the fact that the war in Ukraine has in large part devolved into a 'positional' war the lessons (at least on the defense) are still appropriate.
Of course as repeated multiple times in this update, the primary lesson is 'dig in...'
And keep digging...
I perceive that this is a "come as you are war," on both sides. On the Ukrainian side, I see older men in combat roles that the U.S. assigns normally to young guys--teens and 20s--some of whom may seem "dumb as $hit," but have strong backs for the back-breaking work of a combat infantryman. Obiviously this includes lots of digging. Even older men in good physical condition are not gonna perform the grunt work nearly as well as well trained and lead "babies." Of course, senior Ukrainian military leadership is called for, competent leadership. Nonetheless, Ukraine still has to deal with older men who perform the work of "babies," and valiantly so in my perception. I just don't think that this problem will go way substantially under current conditions, even with improved leadership.
I am no expert in military trench digging but I did grow up on a farm. I think without power equipment it is unrealistic to expect combat soldiers to dig trenches at the scale and standards of modern warfare. Maybe a solitary foxhole in a forward position. The rest should be done by support troops with engineering equipment. Combat troops should practice their equipment and get plenty of rest
I am from Eastern Europe and we like to complain A LOT. I think if we heard directly from the Ukrainian engineer corps they would tell us that hey have a list of priorities and a schedule.
Armies do have combat engineers to dig defensive positions with power equipment. Combat engineers or their equivalent have been doing this very thing for centuries (w/o power equipment)! I think that which applies to the original post is about troops taking over an area and having to prepare trenches and fortifications "on the fly." Happens in all wars. Ukraine apparently has also been deficient at times with forward thinking by failing to prepare professionally dug positions and redoubts and other flanking defensive positions in advance of possible need (as in the case of a strategic or tactical defeat).
"(as in the case of a strategic or tactical defeat)"
I meant to say "withdrawal," not "defeat."
Addendum to my previous post - in WWII on the Eastern Front German infantry in villages where the houses were of wooden construction without full basements would dig out under the floors creating firing slits at ground level. They placed the excavated earth on the floors above to increase protection from overhead fire.
This could be done in more hasty defences in the current fighting as well.
This was a very interesting read, so what can be done? Senior officers need to have the butts chewed ?
Can somebody recommend a good (e)book on how to build defense positions for simple soldiers?
What O'Leary writes implies a lack of seriousness from Ukrainian brass, not something you'd expect 2.5 years into this, and having built a good fortification line after 2014. But when old units don't get replacements and supplies, so they can create new brigades, the brass must be afraid to push them hard. Thing is, if they want to win, they have to do better.
In response to comments and questions here:
It doesn't matter of the Ukrainian soldier is professional or drafted. This should be a skill taught in basic training, a nationalized standard that Ukraine lacks.
It has to be part of the culture. When I started, we carried not a shovel, but an entrenching tool like this: https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/vietnam-war-folding-entrenching-shovel-566-c-e99423bbf8
That was replaced by the collapseable entrenching tool: https://www.amazon.com/AugTouf-Survival-Collapsible-Gardening-Emergency/dp/B092LGCNKB/ref=asc_df_B092LGCNKB/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=692875362841&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4813984657581910740&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007595&hvtargid=pla-2281435180218&mcid=23c922c81d9c32a697bbdc628b3d444e&hvocijid=4813984657581910740-B092LGCNKB-&hvexpln=73&gad_source=1&th=1
We'd patrol in the woods with heavy rucksacks and weapons and if we were there for 12 hours we'd dig in. Even if we were tired. It might seem compassionate to let tired men rest, but if the tired men are not protected then they are less likely to go home. Compassionate leaders protect their soldiers by insisting that they dig in.
Here's a good start to a fighting position, created with an entrenching tool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wgCWia9k-Q
Images at the bottom show hasty fighting positions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_fighting_position
Professional soldiers or drafted soldiers, digging in is a basic skill, just as firing a rifle is a basic skill. It should be taught in a nationally standardized training environment, which Ukraine does not have.
Digging in under fire has happened in wars for centuries. It just much easier to build a trench system with logs and sandbags when you're not under fire. Do you remember the example of digging positions in Marinka? They did that while under fire.
If the argument is that you don't have enough troops to man the line, then the line will not hold no matter how will you entrench because the enemy will find the avenue of approach that is not being covered by observation and fire and attack any positions you do have from the flanks and rear. I refer you back to the 47th Brigade video. https://x.com/AndrewPerpetua/status/1824739152924991696
It doesn't matter if you're old or young. Those Roman soldiers marched and dug at 45 years old. Life is easier when you're young but you still dig.
Various fighting positions. If you click on the images they expand: https://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/survival/fighting-position-design-.shtml
Basic requirements for a fighting position:
https://www.tecom.marines.mil/Portals/120/Docs/Student%20Materials/CREST%20Manual/RP0502.pdf
Thank you very much!