Shall I post links to all the videos showing bodies of kids and women torn apart by 'gas explosions'?
....remarkably lots of gas explosions in the Gaza Strip the last 16 years...
Point is this: gauging by the 'orange fireball', it's perfectly possible that this one case was an accident. Al the 7-8 other cases of Israelis bombing car-convoys of fleeing civilians with GBU-31s and similar similar, 907kg heavy bombs, are not only 'disproportional violence', but simply a mass murder.
Do we have videos of the strikes themselves on the other car convoys rather than the aftermath (genuine question)? Israel has very little incentive to bomb evacuation routes since it wants to clear everyone out of northern Gaza + civilian casualties risk losing American support. Hamas has every incentive to stop the evacuation giving them civilians to hide behind in the expected war in northern Gaza (and has explicitly told civilians to stay).
The claim made there is this is probably an attack by Hamas, rather than an accident, in which case all other similar explosions have to come under suspicion.
....sorry, but gauging by the rest of your message, I strongly doubt this is a 'genuine' question. On the contrary: it sounds like another provocation into entirely pointless babbling....
While agreeing that Israeli actions in Gasa are barbaric, I have the same question: Israel clearly shouldn’t be interested in preventing civilians from leaving N. Gasa, and Hamas is equally clearly interested in keeping them in place. And since as many as 5 convoys have supposedly been bombed, it could hardly be the result of accidental errors. Then, what was it?
Without further evidence, I’d be leery to add those bombings to the list of Israeli crimes.
You are all free to ask Israel why did it bomb - a total of at least 7 times - columns of civilians following its (illegal) order to leave northern Gaza, massacring over 70 of them.
....even more so because yes, at least members of Knesset have clearly expressed that they want to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip.
Re. Hamas: it wasn't capable of exercising full control over the Gaza Strip 'in peace', but Israel (and you, because Israel said so), expect it to be in full control of the Gaza Strip in its current conditions, under sustained, and random Israeli bombardment?
....and that without asking people who are refusing to leave, why are they refusing to leave?
Preference for 'believing' one or the other side in this conflict - instead of cross-examination and logical thinking - is what has brought us where we are: where our governments and the media are DICTATING us what to think about this war, and are publicly banning any kind of critique of their double standards.
Yes, I'm fully aware of the gravity of such behavior - that's why I keep reading your blog. And generally, look for evidence rather than ready-to-eat conclusions whenever possible.
Is there a possibility that the IDF thinks that it is not targeting civilians but destroying Hamas travelling in that convoy? Unless we can rule that possibility out, we can't say that Israel has no motive for that strike
The Financial Times analysed the incident and concluded it was most likely an airstrike. It writes:
"To assess the competing claims, the FT has worked with Airwars, a conflict monitoring group, as well as munitions experts to shed light on the nature of the attack, its timing, aftermath and the type of explosive used.
While assertions have been made by both sides about the incident and death toll, the available evidence is less clear. However, analysis of the video footage rules out most explanations aside from an Israeli strike."
Later in the same article, it mentions IEDs and also says “ He also ruled out heavier bombs designed to target buildings since no crater is visible. Cobb-Smith said a targeted missile, by contrast, would have caused damage consistent with the aftermath”.
That statement doesn’t seem to correlate well with the beginning statement in the article, nor does it support (but I’m not an expert like TC) the idea of a “GBU-31s and similar similar, 907kg heavy bombs”. So I remain confused. Was the FT article updated , creating more ambiguity? Or are they just talking about one of the other (Tom said five) bombings?
"Chris Cobb-Smith, a former British army major and weapons and munitions expert, said that while it was hard to draw a definitive conclusion, the available evidence suggested the most likely cause of the blast was a missile strike.
He said that while a car bomb was a possibility, “none of the vehicles really look as if they were the device-carrying car, which would look more like an opened can”.
He also ruled out heavier bombs designed to target buildings since no crater is visible. Cobb-Smith said a targeted missile, by contrast, would have caused damage consistent with the aftermath of the blast and would have “certainly set fire to the vehicles”."
Thank you, Tom, it’s so good to get a balanced, nuanced summary. We struggle with this in our press and government which is desperate to dance on the wire of supporting Israel whilst starting to realise their culpability in civilian deaths.
I think there is also growing concern in Israel and U.S.A. that a big attack on Gaza is according to the Hamas prepared script, so it would change nothing just harm their relations with other Arabic countries. And, U.S.A. needs some success with Saudi Arabia, because of global oil prices.
Yes, they are. Have attacked another village, killed two etc.... there is absolutely no change in this regards: actually, they're exploiting the fact that everybody is 'standing with Israel' to intensify their campaign of ethnic cleansing.
Tom: NAMASTE my friend. The video of the 19 year old was harsh and at times difficult to read as well as DIFFICULT to read (going to fast) but was WELL worth it. That woman has the courage of a desert lioness and Sekhmet would be VERY proud of her.
"Voting for peace" does not always work. We in Ukraine voted for the centrist Zelensky, who promised to unite the East and West of Ukraine, the Russian- and Ukrainian-speakers. He decisively won against the aggressive right-wing nationalist Poroshenko. What did we get in return? A full-scale war with at least half a million of casualties, millions of refugees, destroyed cities and mined land.
Would you call him a left-wing or centrist, with his motto "The army, the language, the faith" and putting lots of effort into creating a new Ukrainian Orthodox Church?
No, the war is the result of Putin's desire to improve his support from Russian population via yet another small victorious war, like he did invading Ichkeria, Georgia and Crimea. However, this time he failed to believe his intelligence, and got into a long full-scale trouble.
On the other hand, "voting for peace" alone is not a method to avoid wars, as the practice shows, if you have aggressive neighbors.
-- "so-called separated east and west of Ukraine russian and Ukrainian speakers" - Poroshenko applied the "divide and conquer" principle: if people dislike one another, they will never unite against the ruler.
-- It is funny that all the Russian "neo-Nazi" and "Maidan coup" propaganda was coined to fit Poroshenko, but is now applied against Zelensky, who has nothing to do with right-wing or Maidan.
Agree, there must be all parties for peace. Otherwise voting for peace is considered as weakness of the other party and a reason to attack. Remember Munich Agreement in 1938, Minsk agreements in 2014, ...
Sure yet I doubt this argumentation push the position you and Marmot seem to hold.
There is one side who could stop all of this within days. The other is either besieged, occupied or in the process of being ethnically cleansed.
Afaik, even Gaza is considered as occupied by organizations such as the UN given the disproportionate control Israel exerce on it. Among it on Water, Electricity and Internet connexion. That is on top of being a gigantic refugee camp and de facto prison (aka what we generally call a concentration camp).
Sure, Israel has to start with a peace process, Israel can (and should) stop bombing and attacking Gaza, Israel can (and should) stop hostilities in Western bank. But then Palestinians has to follow and stop or suppress their terrorism, so as some talks may start. - And this is that both parties at the table must want peace.
If Palestinians would not be able to stop and suppress their terrorists (and that's not Hamas only), then they exploit such Israel actions towards peace and cause more violence.
You are suggesting one side can enter peace talks no matter the crimes it committed and still do while the other should be "suppressed" or "stop". Odd to say the least. It seems you want peace talks but only after total victory.
Hamas and others should obviously be the ones with whom peace talks are held in the first place. You can't negotiate peace with people you are not at war.
That's something I have not written. You interchange nations and their leaders deliberately. Israelis have to talk to Palestinians, sure, but Israel is not Likud only and Palestinians are not Hamas only.
Current extremist Israel government would never do any serious peace talks. Same for Hamas. Both nations should not only change their leadership to be able to start a peace process, but they must try seriously to suppress and punish their extremist, too. Otherwise the peace process would never go well - that's why Oslo Accords have failed.
Mentioning Ukraine is this context underlines one important thing: in both conflicts, there is some “legal basis” for a peaceful solution. In case of Palestine, it’s two states, per the original 1947 UN resolution, which both sides have rejected in the past and continue to reject to these days. In case of Ukraine, it’s the internationally-recognized (including by Russia) Ukrainian state within 1991 borders, which Ukraine is perfectly happy with, but Russia is not. So, “voting for peace” in Ukraine actually means some form of surrender, while “voting for peace” in Russia actually means peace. Whereas in Palestine, “voting for peace” means only a hope for it.
The Israeli choice to hold the settlements in the occupied territory is the choice of war without end and limits. Is there any use to live in such a country? Maybe only to have a place where Netaniahu and the like of him can be prime ministers and the like.
White Phosphorus Bombs???? REALLY!!!!!! The IASF is using White Phosphorus Bombs on civilian areas. Seen WAYYYYYY too many clips on BBC the last few days. WTF!!!!!!!! Care to comment???
....especially on the aspect of....hmmmm....War Crimes???
Thanks, Tom, for sharing that video. A powerful and humbling lesson. Only 1 year into adulthood and just be through such horror with her friends and family and she can have such humanity for the people on the other side .
Precisely because she is 1000% aware of something all the gaffers are refusing to even acknowledge: what her country - or at least its politicians and armed forces - are doing to Palestinians. Every single day. Not 'just' 1 out of 365 days.
Thanks Tom, not only for the update, but also for don’t fall into the Westerner way of understanding that so long and dirty conflict. Really difficult to found a similar informative source like you today (like to wrote to Santa nowadays...)
This girl in the video is not alone and not so unique in her views as some might think.
A lot of people in Israel hate Netanyahu for his politics and many jews both in Israel and around the world would like to find another solution then war.
Here are just some of the organisations working for that, and it’s quite a big number.
Haaretz (not exactly al jazera) wrote that settlers, protected by israelian army, are actively pursuing the strategy of expanding this conflict on the west bank.
I watched the video. Share her sentiment. Unfortunately there are too many on both sides that are for war. I predict these will end up steering the conflict for years to come without any resolution.
Thanks a lot Tom
What do you make of this claim that the footage of the attack on the convoy is inconsistent with an air strike and more consistent with a gas canister explosion: https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1713241560752533662
Shall I post links to all the videos showing bodies of kids and women torn apart by 'gas explosions'?
....remarkably lots of gas explosions in the Gaza Strip the last 16 years...
Point is this: gauging by the 'orange fireball', it's perfectly possible that this one case was an accident. Al the 7-8 other cases of Israelis bombing car-convoys of fleeing civilians with GBU-31s and similar similar, 907kg heavy bombs, are not only 'disproportional violence', but simply a mass murder.
Do we have videos of the strikes themselves on the other car convoys rather than the aftermath (genuine question)? Israel has very little incentive to bomb evacuation routes since it wants to clear everyone out of northern Gaza + civilian casualties risk losing American support. Hamas has every incentive to stop the evacuation giving them civilians to hide behind in the expected war in northern Gaza (and has explicitly told civilians to stay).
The claim made there is this is probably an attack by Hamas, rather than an accident, in which case all other similar explosions have to come under suspicion.
Better to acknowledge the crimes than contest the details.
....sorry, but gauging by the rest of your message, I strongly doubt this is a 'genuine' question. On the contrary: it sounds like another provocation into entirely pointless babbling....
Think about it, then try again.
While agreeing that Israeli actions in Gasa are barbaric, I have the same question: Israel clearly shouldn’t be interested in preventing civilians from leaving N. Gasa, and Hamas is equally clearly interested in keeping them in place. And since as many as 5 convoys have supposedly been bombed, it could hardly be the result of accidental errors. Then, what was it?
Without further evidence, I’d be leery to add those bombings to the list of Israeli crimes.
You are all free to ask Israel why did it bomb - a total of at least 7 times - columns of civilians following its (illegal) order to leave northern Gaza, massacring over 70 of them.
....even more so because yes, at least members of Knesset have clearly expressed that they want to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip.
Re. Hamas: it wasn't capable of exercising full control over the Gaza Strip 'in peace', but Israel (and you, because Israel said so), expect it to be in full control of the Gaza Strip in its current conditions, under sustained, and random Israeli bombardment?
....and that without asking people who are refusing to leave, why are they refusing to leave?
Preference for 'believing' one or the other side in this conflict - instead of cross-examination and logical thinking - is what has brought us where we are: where our governments and the media are DICTATING us what to think about this war, and are publicly banning any kind of critique of their double standards.
Are you aware of the gravity of such behaviour?
Yes, I'm fully aware of the gravity of such behavior - that's why I keep reading your blog. And generally, look for evidence rather than ready-to-eat conclusions whenever possible.
Thanks again for your reporting!
Is there a possibility that the IDF thinks that it is not targeting civilians but destroying Hamas travelling in that convoy? Unless we can rule that possibility out, we can't say that Israel has no motive for that strike
Yes-no-no-no.
Yes, because it is possible they do not know.
No, because it is unlikely they do not know (and here a good example, where the IDF is targeting fire-fighters and first-responders:
https://twitter.com/Aldanmarki/status/1713641318952456226).
No, because there is Hannibal Directive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
No, because characters like Netanyahu know they have it easy to manipulate the US public:
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1554192991989206
The Financial Times analysed the incident and concluded it was most likely an airstrike. It writes:
"To assess the competing claims, the FT has worked with Airwars, a conflict monitoring group, as well as munitions experts to shed light on the nature of the attack, its timing, aftermath and the type of explosive used.
While assertions have been made by both sides about the incident and death toll, the available evidence is less clear. However, analysis of the video footage rules out most explanations aside from an Israeli strike."
Later in the same article, it mentions IEDs and also says “ He also ruled out heavier bombs designed to target buildings since no crater is visible. Cobb-Smith said a targeted missile, by contrast, would have caused damage consistent with the aftermath”.
That statement doesn’t seem to correlate well with the beginning statement in the article, nor does it support (but I’m not an expert like TC) the idea of a “GBU-31s and similar similar, 907kg heavy bombs”. So I remain confused. Was the FT article updated , creating more ambiguity? Or are they just talking about one of the other (Tom said five) bombings?
It wrote:
"Chris Cobb-Smith, a former British army major and weapons and munitions expert, said that while it was hard to draw a definitive conclusion, the available evidence suggested the most likely cause of the blast was a missile strike.
He said that while a car bomb was a possibility, “none of the vehicles really look as if they were the device-carrying car, which would look more like an opened can”.
He also ruled out heavier bombs designed to target buildings since no crater is visible. Cobb-Smith said a targeted missile, by contrast, would have caused damage consistent with the aftermath of the blast and would have “certainly set fire to the vehicles”."
Thank you, Tom, it’s so good to get a balanced, nuanced summary. We struggle with this in our press and government which is desperate to dance on the wire of supporting Israel whilst starting to realise their culpability in civilian deaths.
I think there is also growing concern in Israel and U.S.A. that a big attack on Gaza is according to the Hamas prepared script, so it would change nothing just harm their relations with other Arabic countries. And, U.S.A. needs some success with Saudi Arabia, because of global oil prices.
Is there any reports of escalation of the settlers on the West Bank? I mean they are dangerous in what they could cause to escalate.
Yes, they are. Have attacked another village, killed two etc.... there is absolutely no change in this regards: actually, they're exploiting the fact that everybody is 'standing with Israel' to intensify their campaign of ethnic cleansing.
Here a related Twitter/X-report:
https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1712775743451632058
Tom: NAMASTE my friend. The video of the 19 year old was harsh and at times difficult to read as well as DIFFICULT to read (going to fast) but was WELL worth it. That woman has the courage of a desert lioness and Sekhmet would be VERY proud of her.
"Voting for peace" does not always work. We in Ukraine voted for the centrist Zelensky, who promised to unite the East and West of Ukraine, the Russian- and Ukrainian-speakers. He decisively won against the aggressive right-wing nationalist Poroshenko. What did we get in return? A full-scale war with at least half a million of casualties, millions of refugees, destroyed cities and mined land.
Denys, FYI, Poroshenko wasn't "right-wing nationalist". This is such a joke.
Would you call him a left-wing or centrist, with his motto "The army, the language, the faith" and putting lots of effort into creating a new Ukrainian Orthodox Church?
So, full scale war in Ukraine is a result of the so-called separated east and west of Ukraine russian and Ukrainian speakers? :))
Your desperate attempt to push kremlin propaganda was taken into account. Well done!
No, the war is the result of Putin's desire to improve his support from Russian population via yet another small victorious war, like he did invading Ichkeria, Georgia and Crimea. However, this time he failed to believe his intelligence, and got into a long full-scale trouble.
On the other hand, "voting for peace" alone is not a method to avoid wars, as the practice shows, if you have aggressive neighbors.
-- "so-called separated east and west of Ukraine russian and Ukrainian speakers" - Poroshenko applied the "divide and conquer" principle: if people dislike one another, they will never unite against the ruler.
-- It is funny that all the Russian "neo-Nazi" and "Maidan coup" propaganda was coined to fit Poroshenko, but is now applied against Zelensky, who has nothing to do with right-wing or Maidan.
Agree, there must be all parties for peace. Otherwise voting for peace is considered as weakness of the other party and a reason to attack. Remember Munich Agreement in 1938, Minsk agreements in 2014, ...
Sure yet I doubt this argumentation push the position you and Marmot seem to hold.
There is one side who could stop all of this within days. The other is either besieged, occupied or in the process of being ethnically cleansed.
Afaik, even Gaza is considered as occupied by organizations such as the UN given the disproportionate control Israel exerce on it. Among it on Water, Electricity and Internet connexion. That is on top of being a gigantic refugee camp and de facto prison (aka what we generally call a concentration camp).
Sure, Israel has to start with a peace process, Israel can (and should) stop bombing and attacking Gaza, Israel can (and should) stop hostilities in Western bank. But then Palestinians has to follow and stop or suppress their terrorism, so as some talks may start. - And this is that both parties at the table must want peace.
If Palestinians would not be able to stop and suppress their terrorists (and that's not Hamas only), then they exploit such Israel actions towards peace and cause more violence.
You are suggesting one side can enter peace talks no matter the crimes it committed and still do while the other should be "suppressed" or "stop". Odd to say the least. It seems you want peace talks but only after total victory.
Hamas and others should obviously be the ones with whom peace talks are held in the first place. You can't negotiate peace with people you are not at war.
That's something I have not written. You interchange nations and their leaders deliberately. Israelis have to talk to Palestinians, sure, but Israel is not Likud only and Palestinians are not Hamas only.
Current extremist Israel government would never do any serious peace talks. Same for Hamas. Both nations should not only change their leadership to be able to start a peace process, but they must try seriously to suppress and punish their extremist, too. Otherwise the peace process would never go well - that's why Oslo Accords have failed.
Voting for peace works for the Goliath party, not so much for the David, but in the case of Gaza, Israel is rather the Goliath...
WOW!!!!
1) I did not recall mentioning Ukraine or Put'ler but okay....
2) I did not know I was going to light off such a powder keg...
3) PEACE at Whatever the price = Chamberlain bending over for Hitler and allowing Nazi Germany to do whatever it wanted = WWII
Mentioning Ukraine is this context underlines one important thing: in both conflicts, there is some “legal basis” for a peaceful solution. In case of Palestine, it’s two states, per the original 1947 UN resolution, which both sides have rejected in the past and continue to reject to these days. In case of Ukraine, it’s the internationally-recognized (including by Russia) Ukrainian state within 1991 borders, which Ukraine is perfectly happy with, but Russia is not. So, “voting for peace” in Ukraine actually means some form of surrender, while “voting for peace” in Russia actually means peace. Whereas in Palestine, “voting for peace” means only a hope for it.
The Israeli choice to hold the settlements in the occupied territory is the choice of war without end and limits. Is there any use to live in such a country? Maybe only to have a place where Netaniahu and the like of him can be prime ministers and the like.
White Phosphorus Bombs???? REALLY!!!!!! The IASF is using White Phosphorus Bombs on civilian areas. Seen WAYYYYYY too many clips on BBC the last few days. WTF!!!!!!!! Care to comment???
....especially on the aspect of....hmmmm....War Crimes???
Thanks, Tom, for sharing that video. A powerful and humbling lesson. Only 1 year into adulthood and just be through such horror with her friends and family and she can have such humanity for the people on the other side .
Precisely because she is 1000% aware of something all the gaffers are refusing to even acknowledge: what her country - or at least its politicians and armed forces - are doing to Palestinians. Every single day. Not 'just' 1 out of 365 days.
Thanks Tom, not only for the update, but also for don’t fall into the Westerner way of understanding that so long and dirty conflict. Really difficult to found a similar informative source like you today (like to wrote to Santa nowadays...)
This girl in the video is not alone and not so unique in her views as some might think.
A lot of people in Israel hate Netanyahu for his politics and many jews both in Israel and around the world would like to find another solution then war.
Here are just some of the organisations working for that, and it’s quite a big number.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_anti-occupation_groups
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Non-governmental_organizations_involved_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_peace_process
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Human_rights_organizations_based_in_Israel
The same way as not all palestinians are barbarian Hamas murders, not all israeli are cold-blooded war criminals.
Haaretz (not exactly al jazera) wrote that settlers, protected by israelian army, are actively pursuing the strategy of expanding this conflict on the west bank.
Yes, tragically, terror settlers attacked another village, killed two, shot the third....
https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1712775743451632058
Thank you, Tom. I've got more information. It's really hard to arrange the information in this war and unfortunately it"s not enough every time.
I watched the video. Share her sentiment. Unfortunately there are too many on both sides that are for war. I predict these will end up steering the conflict for years to come without any resolution.
Thanks for the report Tom good to read your updates