Ironically, this is exactly the kind of reasoning used by Palestinian extremists. In their eyes, Israel is their HAMAS, Netanyahu is their Hitler. In their eyes, Israel must be destroyed even if significant collateral demage is caused to Israeli people. Otherwise even more Palestinians will be killed.
'Jihadi-Salfism' is a cheap excuse used by Wahhabists to 'camouflage' themselves in the West - because, from their point of view, 'Salafism = conservative, but non-militant and apolitical.' That way, they hope to 'remain under radar'. Sadly, the West has then 'accepted' this (mis)interpretation, primarily because of Egyptian and Lebanese influences...
Wahhabism is the most extremist, most militant and most oppressive of Sunni Islam sects. It is the state-religion in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and few other countries - and began spreading (by Saudis & Co.) - in reaction to the Israeli victory during the June 1967 War. The Saudis watched TV news and concluded that 'large Arab armies have been defeated by religiously-motivated Israeli army'. Thus, decided to 'repeat the exercise'.
even if you go up to 'Observer9999', I'll block you every single time.
Before it's so far, just the following bit of information: when the Daesh appeared in the Gaza Strip, Hamas slaughtered everybody who was just sympathising with it.
Simple, let Israel give Palestinians their lands back. I think you know about the two state solution. So one of the first steps should be stopping settler colonies in the West bank and removing all the illegal settlements. Then creating the independent state of Palestine with the pre-1967 borders.
If we go back to 1947, then Israel shouldn't exist. You can't just gather people of a particular religion from all over the world and then snatch someone else's land and give it to the first party.
However, that utterly disgusting thing did happen and now we have a state named Israel. So, the practical solution is recognizing two independent states. And about security issue. Well, I don't know how it can be any different than present? Israel has the most advanced technology and military in the Arab. So, I don't understand how a free Palestine (a nation with very few resources) will be a security threat to Israel. Btw, if you think that the only way to Israel's security is by ethically cleansing the Arabs, then there is no point in discussion.
That decision was "totally unfair" to local population as I understand.
And yes, it's more likely that a free Palestine will be an ally of anti-Israel block. That shouldn't be surprising given decades of oppression. But there are examples of enemies being allies. US-UK is the best example. If we think about neighboring countries, the UK-France is another example.
Look, Israel can keep creating excuses (some of which might even be valid concern), but the two state solution seems to be the only viable solution.
Integrating the whole area into one state could be a solution if everyone was provided equal rights. But I see no possibility of that amid all the hate two sides have for each other.
That's obviously a problem. However, there are examples of somewhat similar regions in the world. For example, Nakhchivan is separated from Azerbaijan by Armenia; Kaliningrad sperated from Russia by several countries; Alaska separated from the US by Canada. My country was also once part of such a structure though that didn't end well for us. So, yeah it's a concern but I guess it can be solved by great minds.
Two state solution. And let's say Israel just decides the borders unilaterally or together with the US and ignores palestinian demands, modifying the solution in its own interest, might makes right and all. Then Israel gives full citizenship and voting rights to any palestinians that remain on Israeli territory. Then publicly offer a cease fire, with no blockades, occupation, preemptive strikes ect. But Israel still defends itself when attacked ofc.
Will this truly change the situation in 1 year? Unlikely, Hamas will still continue fighting Israel to "get their land back" or something, so border skirmishes are inevitable. I don't realistically think even a fairer solution will avoid those. But give it 10 years of proper independence and stable borders, in which domestic problems can no longer be blamed on Israel, and the conflict will die down.
Yeah, mutual agreement is probably out of the question but it also isn't necessary.
The core issue right now is that under the status quo Israel is asserting sovereignty over Gaza and the West Bank but the people living there don't have the right to vote in Israel's election. So any decision that clearly specifies Israel's borders is going to be an improvement - as people inside the border get a vote inside Israel while people outside the border get to govern themselves outside Israel.
But Israel is unlikely to do this border clarification as the current unclarified status means having all the power with zero of the democratic responsibility. This is perfect in the short term, will have horrible consequences in the long term, but it's kind of obvious which of the two the Israel government cares about.
Forget all palestinians, even "just" the 2 million who live in the Gaza strip - do you really think all of them want to kill all jews? Some of them probably do. Some would even want that if Israel didn't constantly besiege and starve them. Many of the children born in the Gaza strip today will grow up to hate Israel. How do we resolve that problem? There are only two solutions:
1) Do right by them and hope they live their own lives and don't grow up with hatred.
2) Start bombing them when they're just toddlers and hope it somehow works out
There's no guarantees with the first solution but it's still hell of a lot more likely to work than the second one. It's easy to say "ok, so 1% of palestinians want to kill me, so now I want to kill 100% of palestinians". But it's both immoral and counterproductive, as you're just multiplying the number of your enemies.
If you're complaining about Arabs refusing to accept Zionist colonists amid their rank - and then especially so because your religion is dictating that, though without any other serious material evidence - then go and take the Zionist colonists to your country.
The PLO/Palestinian Authority has done that. Regardless, Netanyahu has and continues to do everything possible to avoid peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians. He used to pay lip service to a peaceful solution while acting to undermine one. Now he doesn’t even do that.
This is certainly an unintended outcome of the Hamas attack. Any legitimate criticism of Israeli settlement policy will be branded as "anti-semitic terrorist propaganda" for years to come. Goes to show once more the absolute futility of terrorism.
IDK why you are under the impression " Any legitimate criticism of Israeli settlement policy will be branded as "anti-semitic terrorist propaganda"" would be anything new. Seems like you never ever paid attention to Israel or Palestine. Cause it has always been the case.
And while Hamas is certainly committing crimes, it has always been used by Western propaganda as a convenient bogeyman to deny any rights to all Palestinians. Which is why regions without Hamas are not sparred continuous Israeli crimes and ethnically cleansed. In fact Western Bank is the area where they are most prevalent.
And before Hamas, the obstacle to Palestinian grievance was the PLO. And before that something else.
Though in this Shock & Awe moment, Westerners are dropping this fallacy and openly embracing near genocidal rhetoric. See the various US politicians literally calling for the annihilation of the Palestinian people. Or the UE commission proudly announcing it will cease all of its humanitarian program to the Palestinian.
This is nonsense. The settlement policy has been widely condemned without any such consequence, not least within Israel and by Jews elsewhere. It's also verifiably untrue to argue that Hamas- and PA-controlled areas have been treated identically by the Israeli state.
" It's also verifiably untrue to argue that Hamas- and PA-controlled areas have been treated identically by the Israeli state"
Indeed, this is exactly what I said. As PA areas have seen the worse of it and are continuously aggressively ethnic cleansing by Israel. Unlike Hamas held Gaza.
Thanks! "Both-sideism" that accurately reflects both sides.
Israel long ago forgot the old Roman adage: divisa et impera. Encouraging moderates on the West Bank would eventually have isolated Hamas, and created pressure for them to reform, a la the IRA. A smart minority in Israel has suggested that.
But to be fair, how often in this region has any political player--with power--ever done anything strategically smart? Or even those outside who get involved?
The Democrats have lost their spine when it comes to the Middle East. Where has Biden been in putting the brakes on what is excellently here called settler terrorism? Clinton or Obama would have done so. The Obama administration's position was very, very different. Netanyahu clearly hated the man over the JCPOA and attempts to normalize relations with Iran. Trump and Israel were "thick as thieves" as we say. Israel was losing grassroots support among US Democrats and the mainly Democratic US Jewry, especially the young.
Israel has not been a significant factor in Ukraine, so keeping them sweet in that regard cannot have been much of a factor. I think the only executive control left vis a vis Middle East policy is in the hands of Pentagon people: "Hurr durr send a carrier strike group."
I pulled all of the above out of my small finger, as usually. No idea why are you still around to read my fabrications?
Yoav Gallant, the Israeli Minister of Defence, has publicly declared all the Gazans for 'human animals'.
Do I REALLY have to quote similar or worse statements by Israeli ministers of security, ministers of finances, and few others, too...?
But, you are coming here to teach me about being 'carried away'?
Recommendation: just fade away. Thank you very much - in advance.
Yeah. This is all about 'disagreement'.... 🙄
Nah, of course not. According to Netanyahu, it was 'Muslims': 🙄
https://twitter.com/AqssssFajr/status/1707089726484701593
....and characters like you then wonder why am starting to block characters like you....
Ironically, this is exactly the kind of reasoning used by Palestinian extremists. In their eyes, Israel is their HAMAS, Netanyahu is their Hitler. In their eyes, Israel must be destroyed even if significant collateral demage is caused to Israeli people. Otherwise even more Palestinians will be killed.
ISIL's ideology represents radical Jihadi-Salafi Islam so if Hamas was the same then their terrorist attack would have been even more dreadful
That's all fake news, meanwhile denied by the IDF. Therefore: block, again.
See you as 'Observer3'...
Wahhabism, mate. Wahhabism, not Salafism.
'Jihadi-Salfism' is a cheap excuse used by Wahhabists to 'camouflage' themselves in the West - because, from their point of view, 'Salafism = conservative, but non-militant and apolitical.' That way, they hope to 'remain under radar'. Sadly, the West has then 'accepted' this (mis)interpretation, primarily because of Egyptian and Lebanese influences...
Wahhabism is the most extremist, most militant and most oppressive of Sunni Islam sects. It is the state-religion in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and few other countries - and began spreading (by Saudis & Co.) - in reaction to the Israeli victory during the June 1967 War. The Saudis watched TV news and concluded that 'large Arab armies have been defeated by religiously-motivated Israeli army'. Thus, decided to 'repeat the exercise'.
Recommended read:
https://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Devil-Washington-Saudi-Crude/dp/1400052688/ref=sr_1_3?crid=220VF17ME3QTB&keywords=robert+baer&qid=1697023023&s=books&sprefix=robert+barr%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C249&sr=1-3
Dumbo,
even if you go up to 'Observer9999', I'll block you every single time.
Before it's so far, just the following bit of information: when the Daesh appeared in the Gaza Strip, Hamas slaughtered everybody who was just sympathising with it.
That's how clueless are such like you.
Sorrt, but you clearly didn't get the "message" of that article. It doesn't try to justify any of that at all.
Simple, let Israel give Palestinians their lands back. I think you know about the two state solution. So one of the first steps should be stopping settler colonies in the West bank and removing all the illegal settlements. Then creating the independent state of Palestine with the pre-1967 borders.
If we go back to 1947, then Israel shouldn't exist. You can't just gather people of a particular religion from all over the world and then snatch someone else's land and give it to the first party.
However, that utterly disgusting thing did happen and now we have a state named Israel. So, the practical solution is recognizing two independent states. And about security issue. Well, I don't know how it can be any different than present? Israel has the most advanced technology and military in the Arab. So, I don't understand how a free Palestine (a nation with very few resources) will be a security threat to Israel. Btw, if you think that the only way to Israel's security is by ethically cleansing the Arabs, then there is no point in discussion.
That decision was "totally unfair" to local population as I understand.
And yes, it's more likely that a free Palestine will be an ally of anti-Israel block. That shouldn't be surprising given decades of oppression. But there are examples of enemies being allies. US-UK is the best example. If we think about neighboring countries, the UK-France is another example.
Look, Israel can keep creating excuses (some of which might even be valid concern), but the two state solution seems to be the only viable solution.
Integrating the whole area into one state could be a solution if everyone was provided equal rights. But I see no possibility of that amid all the hate two sides have for each other.
So Palestine would get those lands back, but how would Gaza be administered while separated from the other lands?
That's obviously a problem. However, there are examples of somewhat similar regions in the world. For example, Nakhchivan is separated from Azerbaijan by Armenia; Kaliningrad sperated from Russia by several countries; Alaska separated from the US by Canada. My country was also once part of such a structure though that didn't end well for us. So, yeah it's a concern but I guess it can be solved by great minds.
Two state solution. And let's say Israel just decides the borders unilaterally or together with the US and ignores palestinian demands, modifying the solution in its own interest, might makes right and all. Then Israel gives full citizenship and voting rights to any palestinians that remain on Israeli territory. Then publicly offer a cease fire, with no blockades, occupation, preemptive strikes ect. But Israel still defends itself when attacked ofc.
Will this truly change the situation in 1 year? Unlikely, Hamas will still continue fighting Israel to "get their land back" or something, so border skirmishes are inevitable. I don't realistically think even a fairer solution will avoid those. But give it 10 years of proper independence and stable borders, in which domestic problems can no longer be blamed on Israel, and the conflict will die down.
Yeah, mutual agreement is probably out of the question but it also isn't necessary.
The core issue right now is that under the status quo Israel is asserting sovereignty over Gaza and the West Bank but the people living there don't have the right to vote in Israel's election. So any decision that clearly specifies Israel's borders is going to be an improvement - as people inside the border get a vote inside Israel while people outside the border get to govern themselves outside Israel.
But Israel is unlikely to do this border clarification as the current unclarified status means having all the power with zero of the democratic responsibility. This is perfect in the short term, will have horrible consequences in the long term, but it's kind of obvious which of the two the Israel government cares about.
Got a crystal ball to know that? Did you at least run a representative poll between Palestinians?
....or could it be: you simply do not know, because nobody ever asked them (indeed: not even all the mini-dictators that 'rule' them)?
Forget all palestinians, even "just" the 2 million who live in the Gaza strip - do you really think all of them want to kill all jews? Some of them probably do. Some would even want that if Israel didn't constantly besiege and starve them. Many of the children born in the Gaza strip today will grow up to hate Israel. How do we resolve that problem? There are only two solutions:
1) Do right by them and hope they live their own lives and don't grow up with hatred.
2) Start bombing them when they're just toddlers and hope it somehow works out
There's no guarantees with the first solution but it's still hell of a lot more likely to work than the second one. It's easy to say "ok, so 1% of palestinians want to kill me, so now I want to kill 100% of palestinians". But it's both immoral and counterproductive, as you're just multiplying the number of your enemies.
You can read Hamas' minds, Arthur?
So what? Israel has not only the destruction of Palestine but also the denial of its right to exist in its charter. Why don't you complain about that?
If you're complaining about Arabs refusing to accept Zionist colonists amid their rank - and then especially so because your religion is dictating that, though without any other serious material evidence - then go and take the Zionist colonists to your country.
Solves this conflict with a single blow.
....that's the only excuse coming to your mind?
Recommended reading:
https://www.amazon.de/Arabs-Israel-Beginners-Ron-David/dp/1934389161
(If you search around, you can find it downloadable online, too.)
And if you're serious into this topic, then you have to read this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Invention-Jewish-People-Shlomo-Sand/dp/1844676234
(Was written by the top Israeli historian.)
Again: is that the only excuse coming to your mind?
What if/could be/would be/should be....
The PLO/Palestinian Authority has done that. Regardless, Netanyahu has and continues to do everything possible to avoid peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians. He used to pay lip service to a peaceful solution while acting to undermine one. Now he doesn’t even do that.
Beautifully written! Thank you.
This is certainly an unintended outcome of the Hamas attack. Any legitimate criticism of Israeli settlement policy will be branded as "anti-semitic terrorist propaganda" for years to come. Goes to show once more the absolute futility of terrorism.
IDK why you are under the impression " Any legitimate criticism of Israeli settlement policy will be branded as "anti-semitic terrorist propaganda"" would be anything new. Seems like you never ever paid attention to Israel or Palestine. Cause it has always been the case.
And while Hamas is certainly committing crimes, it has always been used by Western propaganda as a convenient bogeyman to deny any rights to all Palestinians. Which is why regions without Hamas are not sparred continuous Israeli crimes and ethnically cleansed. In fact Western Bank is the area where they are most prevalent.
And before Hamas, the obstacle to Palestinian grievance was the PLO. And before that something else.
Though in this Shock & Awe moment, Westerners are dropping this fallacy and openly embracing near genocidal rhetoric. See the various US politicians literally calling for the annihilation of the Palestinian people. Or the UE commission proudly announcing it will cease all of its humanitarian program to the Palestinian.
This is nonsense. The settlement policy has been widely condemned without any such consequence, not least within Israel and by Jews elsewhere. It's also verifiably untrue to argue that Hamas- and PA-controlled areas have been treated identically by the Israeli state.
" It's also verifiably untrue to argue that Hamas- and PA-controlled areas have been treated identically by the Israeli state"
Indeed, this is exactly what I said. As PA areas have seen the worse of it and are continuously aggressively ethnic cleansing by Israel. Unlike Hamas held Gaza.
Sorry, wrong., This is all fully intentional terrorism. Repeat for emphasis: fully intentional terrorism.
This new article by Timothy Snyder shares your perspective: https://snyder.substack.com/p/terror-and-counter-terror
Yup. Have just completed reading it.
С террористами не возможно договориться... отсюда вывод? Что это резня до последнего?
Кто ж перекроет финансирование Израилю? Та же шняга что и с рашкой. Все пилят деньги и молчат в тряпочку.
Sadly, it would appear that nobody with a relevant voice is reading your reports ...
Thanks! "Both-sideism" that accurately reflects both sides.
Israel long ago forgot the old Roman adage: divisa et impera. Encouraging moderates on the West Bank would eventually have isolated Hamas, and created pressure for them to reform, a la the IRA. A smart minority in Israel has suggested that.
But to be fair, how often in this region has any political player--with power--ever done anything strategically smart? Or even those outside who get involved?
Is it the water?
Tue, Oct 10 at 7:33 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/07/opinion/israel-hamas-attack-friedman.html
Nope. They did exactly what you say they didn't do - and that didn't work.
And what I'm doing is no 'both-sidism', but analysis of action and reaction. That's not only 'two different things'.
You may not have any interest but here is one Israeli perspective on the Netanyahu governments relationship with Hamas:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Yep. People tend to know the geography of their own local "rabbit holes" the best.
I actually do have interest in such statements, but: wherever I've asked for any links of that kind, I've confronted only hatred and racism.
Thus: thanks a lot.
No problemo.
Thanks. It looks like battle evil vs evil. I can't support evil. But US our main partner.
Instead of analyzing, finding, and killing terrorist in advance some "smart" old mans decided to kill everyone in Gaza to change the focus.
The Hamas attack on Israel was a terrible terrorist crime.
What the Israelis are now doing to Gaza is also a terrible terrorist crime.
The whole thing is a shitstorm.
Much cleverer people than me have no solution so I will refrain from giving advice.
Jews and Muslims pray to the same Abrahamic God who is also powerless in this conflict.
I would say pray for the souls of the dead and to comfort the wounded but clearly God has no role here.
I accept your sentiments.
Don't want to be disrespectful, but my impression is that all the prayers are entirely in vain.
This situation requires even-handed yet determined decision-making, without any double-standards or usual corruption and predilection.
The Democrats have lost their spine when it comes to the Middle East. Where has Biden been in putting the brakes on what is excellently here called settler terrorism? Clinton or Obama would have done so. The Obama administration's position was very, very different. Netanyahu clearly hated the man over the JCPOA and attempts to normalize relations with Iran. Trump and Israel were "thick as thieves" as we say. Israel was losing grassroots support among US Democrats and the mainly Democratic US Jewry, especially the young.
Israel has not been a significant factor in Ukraine, so keeping them sweet in that regard cannot have been much of a factor. I think the only executive control left vis a vis Middle East policy is in the hands of Pentagon people: "Hurr durr send a carrier strike group."
Ah, it is the Democrats in the USA.... yes, that's making lots of sense.