Didn't you forget to mention the big USA, whose Maga President whipped the Putniks ass before, during and after his presidency and runs for another term under the same sails?
This discussion does not help Ukraine at all, it's biased and incomplete.
All countries fell for Putin in the desire to reach an acceptable amount of stable peace, and doing the blame game is stupid.
OMG I am so happy to hear that you find that report ... problematic. It seems to try to guesstimate it all the way to the beginning from one single warrant. And - as someone living in Germany for many years - Germany had it coming for a long time and made it out with just a few bruises. Now they need to kick their Chinese habit.
I dont know which is worse. The ignorance, the entitlement or the collective hysteria leading to call anybody not following the merry bandwagon as Putin stooge. You guys are losing grip on reality.
Sucks that it's going to cost Ukraine much-needed aid, but you've called this one exactly correctly. Germany may talk big game now, but we have the receipts on how it was behaving in January and February of 2022, let alone '08 and '14. When Germany is great, it's super-great. But the tendency for brazen hypocrisy is astounding (even by my American standards).
They didn't need to: Merkel & Co *like* Russia and respected Putin and his FSB crowd. Human rights issues only mattered to Merkel when it was *America* acting in the wrong.
The "schwäbische Hausfrau" had always the same thing on herself. Balanced budget at all cost and that was only possible with low energy prices.
Otherwise you need to, god forbid, do something against the EU tax fraud regime, where labour is paying taxes and capital does so, in Luxemburg, Ireland, Jersey or Malta.
What did Germany do that is so wrong? Financed the construction of a pipe to get cheaper gas than the rest of us, so their economy can get an advantage ? Germany only did what any country has the obligation to do, try to make it better for themselves and they didn't brake any laws while at it. I wasn't aware the Russian Federation was an enemy of the West, prior to 2022, nor a competitor. By the way, I don't believe Ukraine did it.
Funny how you missed Chehnya, Georgia and Crimea/Donbass l, along with dozens of terror attacks by Puddings regime on European soil, constant harassment through airspace and maritime border violations, stoking the migrant crisis, online psyops and disinformation, election influence, etc.
But let's just focus on gas. Explain to us why was Gazprom restricting supplies and refusing to fill up their gas storages in Germany.... in 2021?
Don't forget inflation and organ harvesting. What does any of that have to do with Germany and a pipe line ? What are you trying to say, countries shouldn't do business with another country which is accused of doing bad things ? What are you, 12 ? The whole world economy will go to shit in less than 24 hours.
Sure, the world is not black and white. But that doesn't mean we have to go full self-serving or that we shouldn't aim to be better. Germany could have developped a proper strategy to wean itself off fossil energy and by extension Russian imports, instead of doing worst of both worlds.
Germany did what it thought was best. Maybe they don't believe renewable is the way to go and it's still ok to do so. Only their own people have the right to judge it and decide if it was a good decision or not. I think a couple of days ago I read an article that said the US is still buying Uranium from Russia.
Interesting. but they're not at war. More weirdly, Ukraine won't blow up the pipeline that runs through its territory because Russia is still paying the lease on it and they need the hard cash. The lease runs out next year.
That's why I said I don't believe Ukraine did it. "Of each particular thing, ask what is it in itself? What is its nature?" Who benefits most from blowing it up ?
Why the hell would we blow up our own property when we can just cut it off. But the reason it's not happening, aside from cash, are the recipients of russian shit flowing in that pipe and EU's consensus voting
Russians were literally telling it out loud, for a long time, to anyone who could hear them. The only problem with awareness could be in that hearing and listening are slightly different things.
NATO training missions were in Ukraine from 2014 onwards. The ZSU would have been in a far worse shape without them in 2022. And you might recall that Trump was impeached for withholding military aid (Javelins!) in a blackmail scheme.
Maybe you should take some time and read a little bit about what you think happened instead of just asserting made-up stuff as if it were true?
While NATO members were still enjoying Russian raw materials, cheap energy and making money in Russia. Do you even know when Russia's military mission to NATO ended ?
"I wasn't aware the Russian Federation was an enemy of the West, prior to 2022"... Germany's secret services were VERY aware since, more or less, the seventies? I know the story of a guy called PRIGOZIN that spent million of dollars to create disinformation in all Western countries:
+ he promoted brexit
+ he promoted ther novax movement even before COVID, just hoping to kill some westeners by convoincing them to avoid vaccination (and he was very successfull)
+ he promoted the alt right all over the west
And much more...
And all the social marketing costs were paid by Russia's ministry of defense.
The US international (interpol) arrest warrant was signed in 2018 concerning actions Prigozin made from 2014 to 2018.
1) so what? He was no military and yet he created and ran the largest, most powerful and ridicolously well armed merc company in MANKIND HISTORY (because, as a matter of facts, it was no merc company at all).... And he did all of this with ZERO previous military experience. Pretty impressing, isn't it?
2) no, Prigozin just directed the project as a cover up/front man for the KGB (fsb) spies that actually ran the people running the troll farm. Putin needed a common criminal just in case the troll farm was caught by the interpol. It's called 'plausible deniability':
...And yet, deniability vanished into thin air when Russia itself admitted Prigozin had always worked for Putin since forever.
1. Do you really think Prigozin created and ran Wagner? A man with no military education or experience, ran a mechanized force, (because that's what they ended up being in the end), a somewhat combined arms force? Again, the guy with the sausage stand ?
2. He didn't run shit. He was just a figurehead, one that you can easily remove when it's served it purpose. In the end, the idiot started thinking that he somehow matters. You don't need a lot of brains to be a "cover up/front man" like you just described him, actually only retards would accept that job because, especially in Russia, everyone knows how it will end.
No, Pregohzin actually was the financier and later did run Wagner directly. It of course was set up by Dmitri Utkin- The GRU guy with the swastika tattoos on his collars.
Yes, Pregohzin ran Wagner; in fact he began to run operations at the front; contrary to your supposition it requires tactical genius, frontal assaults could even be run by some clown on sub stack with the smallest of training and experience - ie you could do it. Also, he was instrumental in the recruitment of prisoners at the penal colonies, traveling to some 150 of them himself. He was no figurehead.
Wagner was not a true mechanized unit, even in the end. The mechanization was used to transport personell and the tanks used for fire support. This was not a breakthrough type mech unit. Throughout the entire Bahkmut operation they mostly fought in foot. Pregozhin also travelled around Africa overseeing operations even post March on Moscow.
Yeah, some figurehead is going to march on Moscow and have loyal followers blindly go along. It's you who need to learn what all EP did, not these other people.
" frontal assaults could even be run by some clown on sub stack with the smallest of training and experience - ie you could do it" . So you think you could do it as well ? How do you think a company goes on offensive, they just stand up and start running towards the enemy, like in the movies ? Fuck the marshalling area, fuck the district for going on offensive, fuck the fire missions, fuck the spacing, fuck the objectives, real men go on offensive like the Visigoths. The mechanized status is given by the type of vehicles you have and not how you choose to use the. Wagner had BTRs, BMPs, tanks, towed and self propelled artillery, reactive artillery and even ground attack jets. Not a lot of them but they had them. To conclude, if I show Prigozin a 50000:1 map, of a battalion going on offensive and asked him to describe the manoeuvres, he will get an AVC.
I think you've got it the wrong way around. In Putin's head, the West has always been the enemy of the Russian Federation and he has acted accordingly. Germany thought it was buying entente when it was simply paying for Putin to build a big enough army to... well, invade Ukraine.
I don't presume to know what is in Putin's head, I only know that before 2014 and even after, Russia had a normal economical relation with the so called West. Money was made in Germany, Austria, etc. and vice versa, they were making money in Russia. Why would you want to end that ? What they were doing with the money, I don't know and I don't care. But I do know they always had a big enough army.
What did Germany do wrong? The real question is: what did Germany do right? Corrupt Merkel initiated the closure of nuclear power plants and pushed hard for the Green Deal, which made coal energy expensive. However, Germany did little to invest in renewable energy and energy infrastructure; instead, they simply replaced one dirty energy source with another. To adapt to the new reality, German businesses invested billions in switching to natural gas, as they were promised cheap gas and expensive energy from other sources. The problem is that the gas is coming from an aggressive country that is using it for geopolitical influence. No sane country would risk becoming so dependent on such a source.
People also forget that Nord Stream 1 is not functioning because Russia refused to replace the necessary equipment.
" The problem is that the gas is coming from an aggressive country that is using it for geopolitical influence". By this logic we should only do business with Luxembourg and Liechtenstein because with this phrase you are describing all the major powers on the planet. Welcome to the 21st century ! Everybody is trying to get even a small advantage against their competition, even if this means doing deals with the devil or some semi legal shit.
By my logic, you should think carefully before closing your nuclear plants and making your economy dependent on opponents. No one is telling you to cut all relations; just make yourself more flexible—think rationally. Russia cut Nord Stream 1 deliveries because they want to hurt their opponents. You should always be prepared for such scenarios.
Your logic might be sound but who are we to tell others how to run their country ? Why are you so sure your way is the only way and the best way ? Nothing from the last years shows that Germany and Russia were opponents, rather partners and not even close to being competitors.
I'm not telling them how to run their country; I'm saying they should act more responsibly and not be surprised when they get backstabbed. Germany and France tried to make Russia a trusted partner, hoping it would prevent war—after all, there’s no reason to start a war against your best friends. But this approach failed because Russia never wanted that in the first place.
You shouldn't blindly empower your opponent if you're unsure about the consequences. Most people in Europe know that Russia uses natural gas and oil for political purposes. A real partner doesn't push their political agenda in business, and if they do, it's clear they aren't doing it for your benefit. Russia didn't give money to Merkel, Sarkozy, and Schröder out of affection; they did it to weaken Germany and the EU.
I dont care if they did it, it was a good target. Actually I am impressed if they did it. The stories movies are made of. But is the evidence really strong?
I sympathize with the sentiment but the judiciary will keep treating it as a crime against private property and the judiciary is independent from the government.
Is there any particular reason the German secret service can't have destroyed the Nordstream themselves? All in all, it was a blackmailing weapon at the hands of an enemy country that have been running hybrid warfare for years by now against both Germany and it's allies, and Putin is unshamely proud of West Germany past (murders and massacres included) to the point of building statues to Stalin and rewriting history books.
If I was a German military, I would have plant the bombs myself.
While you are right concerning the dependency of Germany in the years up to 2023 on Russian energy resources including nuclear fuel supply for the nuclear reactors, you are imho wrong in a few conclusions.
First, the main reason was the price of Russian energy and lack of own resources, which led to buying Russian and the now ongoing transformation to renewable energy. Even a decision to build new reactors starting in 2014 would have changed nothing on that problem for years to come, because those new reactors would start to produce energy maybe ten years from now or even much later and to top it with Russian nuclear fuel.
Second and most important , not Germany or any German politician is accusing Ukraine, it is wrong in two terms. According to the German Law system the General Attorney has the obligation to search for the culprit, and accuse this suspect on his own doing, no politician could hinder him to do so.
According German law such a suspect can only be a person, not a country, and as such a suspect has been identified the General Attorney takes all his available tools to reach out to this suspect to trial him in a German court, all in his rights and duty, and no politician could prevent that. The court would then decide wether the suspect would be guilty and what fine would be appropriate.
Quite a difference to what you said, and to sum up, nobody here in Germany cares about that, not the majority of the people and not the majority of the politicians within or outside the government. Germany will stay with the people in Ukraine, as difficult and lengthy some decisions had been and how tough the financial burden will be.
If Russia had such influence over Germany, imagine what influence the Russians had over Ukraine?
Didn't you forget to mention the big USA, whose Maga President whipped the Putniks ass before, during and after his presidency and runs for another term under the same sails?
This discussion does not help Ukraine at all, it's biased and incomplete.
All countries fell for Putin in the desire to reach an acceptable amount of stable peace, and doing the blame game is stupid.
deleted
OMG I am so happy to hear that you find that report ... problematic. It seems to try to guesstimate it all the way to the beginning from one single warrant. And - as someone living in Germany for many years - Germany had it coming for a long time and made it out with just a few bruises. Now they need to kick their Chinese habit.
"No one in Ukraine cares what Germany accuses a few Ukrainians of doing in the goal of defending Ukraine. Nor do I. Nor should you."
100% right, this is war not a tea-party.
Ukrainians will care when Germany blocks all support in large part due to this sabotage affair.
Dream on, that will not happen, not with this government and not due to this.
I dont know which is worse. The ignorance, the entitlement or the collective hysteria leading to call anybody not following the merry bandwagon as Putin stooge. You guys are losing grip on reality.
Bin der gleichen Meinung! Jawohl.
Sucks that it's going to cost Ukraine much-needed aid, but you've called this one exactly correctly. Germany may talk big game now, but we have the receipts on how it was behaving in January and February of 2022, let alone '08 and '14. When Germany is great, it's super-great. But the tendency for brazen hypocrisy is astounding (even by my American standards).
I dont think US has a monopoly on hypocracy, its so much in demand.
Thank you so very, very much. I could cry to read this text.
I’ve always thought the Russians/KGB/Stassi had something on Frau Merkel
They didn't need to: Merkel & Co *like* Russia and respected Putin and his FSB crowd. Human rights issues only mattered to Merkel when it was *America* acting in the wrong.
The "schwäbische Hausfrau" had always the same thing on herself. Balanced budget at all cost and that was only possible with low energy prices.
Otherwise you need to, god forbid, do something against the EU tax fraud regime, where labour is paying taxes and capital does so, in Luxemburg, Ireland, Jersey or Malta.
Could have been otherwise, but as Germany is right _now_, then even if it really was Ukraine then it'll go down as something like this:
- That was not nice!
- :shrug:
- Don't do that again!
- OK.
- We need a scapegoat for trial!
- OK, but we need him back when trial is over.
Then case closed.
What did Germany do that is so wrong? Financed the construction of a pipe to get cheaper gas than the rest of us, so their economy can get an advantage ? Germany only did what any country has the obligation to do, try to make it better for themselves and they didn't brake any laws while at it. I wasn't aware the Russian Federation was an enemy of the West, prior to 2022, nor a competitor. By the way, I don't believe Ukraine did it.
Funny how you missed Chehnya, Georgia and Crimea/Donbass l, along with dozens of terror attacks by Puddings regime on European soil, constant harassment through airspace and maritime border violations, stoking the migrant crisis, online psyops and disinformation, election influence, etc.
But let's just focus on gas. Explain to us why was Gazprom restricting supplies and refusing to fill up their gas storages in Germany.... in 2021?
Don't forget inflation and organ harvesting. What does any of that have to do with Germany and a pipe line ? What are you trying to say, countries shouldn't do business with another country which is accused of doing bad things ? What are you, 12 ? The whole world economy will go to shit in less than 24 hours.
Sure, the world is not black and white. But that doesn't mean we have to go full self-serving or that we shouldn't aim to be better. Germany could have developped a proper strategy to wean itself off fossil energy and by extension Russian imports, instead of doing worst of both worlds.
Germany did what it thought was best. Maybe they don't believe renewable is the way to go and it's still ok to do so. Only their own people have the right to judge it and decide if it was a good decision or not. I think a couple of days ago I read an article that said the US is still buying Uranium from Russia.
Interesting. but they're not at war. More weirdly, Ukraine won't blow up the pipeline that runs through its territory because Russia is still paying the lease on it and they need the hard cash. The lease runs out next year.
That's why I said I don't believe Ukraine did it. "Of each particular thing, ask what is it in itself? What is its nature?" Who benefits most from blowing it up ?
Why the hell would we blow up our own property when we can just cut it off. But the reason it's not happening, aside from cash, are the recipients of russian shit flowing in that pipe and EU's consensus voting
Ai auzit de Razboiul rece si Cortina de fier? Or are you 12? :)
Yes and I also heard about them ending.
"I wasn't aware the Russian Federation was an enemy of the West, prior to 2022, nor a competitor."
O RLY?
Seriously, what's there to discuss if you weren't aware?
And you were ? Good for you.
Russians were literally telling it out loud, for a long time, to anyone who could hear them. The only problem with awareness could be in that hearing and listening are slightly different things.
Good for them. And still nobody did nothing about it. Despite some weak whines from across the pond, zero, nothing.
NATO training missions were in Ukraine from 2014 onwards. The ZSU would have been in a far worse shape without them in 2022. And you might recall that Trump was impeached for withholding military aid (Javelins!) in a blackmail scheme.
Maybe you should take some time and read a little bit about what you think happened instead of just asserting made-up stuff as if it were true?
While NATO members were still enjoying Russian raw materials, cheap energy and making money in Russia. Do you even know when Russia's military mission to NATO ended ?
"I wasn't aware the Russian Federation was an enemy of the West, prior to 2022"... Germany's secret services were VERY aware since, more or less, the seventies? I know the story of a guy called PRIGOZIN that spent million of dollars to create disinformation in all Western countries:
+ he promoted brexit
+ he promoted ther novax movement even before COVID, just hoping to kill some westeners by convoincing them to avoid vaccination (and he was very successfull)
+ he promoted the alt right all over the west
And much more...
And all the social marketing costs were paid by Russia's ministry of defense.
The US international (interpol) arrest warrant was signed in 2018 concerning actions Prigozin made from 2014 to 2018.
He was personally choosen by Putin.
All this was Prigozin's doing ? The guy who used to have a sausage stand and could barely read and write promoted brexit and no vaccination ?
Nici Ceasusescu nu stia sa scrie. Dar a facut multe (si pe toate cu mana lui).
1) so what? He was no military and yet he created and ran the largest, most powerful and ridicolously well armed merc company in MANKIND HISTORY (because, as a matter of facts, it was no merc company at all).... And he did all of this with ZERO previous military experience. Pretty impressing, isn't it?
2) no, Prigozin just directed the project as a cover up/front man for the KGB (fsb) spies that actually ran the people running the troll farm. Putin needed a common criminal just in case the troll farm was caught by the interpol. It's called 'plausible deniability':
...And yet, deniability vanished into thin air when Russia itself admitted Prigozin had always worked for Putin since forever.
1. Do you really think Prigozin created and ran Wagner? A man with no military education or experience, ran a mechanized force, (because that's what they ended up being in the end), a somewhat combined arms force? Again, the guy with the sausage stand ?
2. He didn't run shit. He was just a figurehead, one that you can easily remove when it's served it purpose. In the end, the idiot started thinking that he somehow matters. You don't need a lot of brains to be a "cover up/front man" like you just described him, actually only retards would accept that job because, especially in Russia, everyone knows how it will end.
No, Pregohzin actually was the financier and later did run Wagner directly. It of course was set up by Dmitri Utkin- The GRU guy with the swastika tattoos on his collars.
Yes, Pregohzin ran Wagner; in fact he began to run operations at the front; contrary to your supposition it requires tactical genius, frontal assaults could even be run by some clown on sub stack with the smallest of training and experience - ie you could do it. Also, he was instrumental in the recruitment of prisoners at the penal colonies, traveling to some 150 of them himself. He was no figurehead.
Wagner was not a true mechanized unit, even in the end. The mechanization was used to transport personell and the tanks used for fire support. This was not a breakthrough type mech unit. Throughout the entire Bahkmut operation they mostly fought in foot. Pregozhin also travelled around Africa overseeing operations even post March on Moscow.
Yeah, some figurehead is going to march on Moscow and have loyal followers blindly go along. It's you who need to learn what all EP did, not these other people.
" frontal assaults could even be run by some clown on sub stack with the smallest of training and experience - ie you could do it" . So you think you could do it as well ? How do you think a company goes on offensive, they just stand up and start running towards the enemy, like in the movies ? Fuck the marshalling area, fuck the district for going on offensive, fuck the fire missions, fuck the spacing, fuck the objectives, real men go on offensive like the Visigoths. The mechanized status is given by the type of vehicles you have and not how you choose to use the. Wagner had BTRs, BMPs, tanks, towed and self propelled artillery, reactive artillery and even ground attack jets. Not a lot of them but they had them. To conclude, if I show Prigozin a 50000:1 map, of a battalion going on offensive and asked him to describe the manoeuvres, he will get an AVC.
I think you've got it the wrong way around. In Putin's head, the West has always been the enemy of the Russian Federation and he has acted accordingly. Germany thought it was buying entente when it was simply paying for Putin to build a big enough army to... well, invade Ukraine.
Exactly this.
I don't presume to know what is in Putin's head, I only know that before 2014 and even after, Russia had a normal economical relation with the so called West. Money was made in Germany, Austria, etc. and vice versa, they were making money in Russia. Why would you want to end that ? What they were doing with the money, I don't know and I don't care. But I do know they always had a big enough army.
Apparently it's not big enough. :)
Let's wait and see.
We're 908 days into the 3-day Special Military Operation. We don't need to.
Maybe you don't and that is good for you.
What did Germany do wrong? The real question is: what did Germany do right? Corrupt Merkel initiated the closure of nuclear power plants and pushed hard for the Green Deal, which made coal energy expensive. However, Germany did little to invest in renewable energy and energy infrastructure; instead, they simply replaced one dirty energy source with another. To adapt to the new reality, German businesses invested billions in switching to natural gas, as they were promised cheap gas and expensive energy from other sources. The problem is that the gas is coming from an aggressive country that is using it for geopolitical influence. No sane country would risk becoming so dependent on such a source.
People also forget that Nord Stream 1 is not functioning because Russia refused to replace the necessary equipment.
" The problem is that the gas is coming from an aggressive country that is using it for geopolitical influence". By this logic we should only do business with Luxembourg and Liechtenstein because with this phrase you are describing all the major powers on the planet. Welcome to the 21st century ! Everybody is trying to get even a small advantage against their competition, even if this means doing deals with the devil or some semi legal shit.
By my logic, you should think carefully before closing your nuclear plants and making your economy dependent on opponents. No one is telling you to cut all relations; just make yourself more flexible—think rationally. Russia cut Nord Stream 1 deliveries because they want to hurt their opponents. You should always be prepared for such scenarios.
Your logic might be sound but who are we to tell others how to run their country ? Why are you so sure your way is the only way and the best way ? Nothing from the last years shows that Germany and Russia were opponents, rather partners and not even close to being competitors.
I'm not telling them how to run their country; I'm saying they should act more responsibly and not be surprised when they get backstabbed. Germany and France tried to make Russia a trusted partner, hoping it would prevent war—after all, there’s no reason to start a war against your best friends. But this approach failed because Russia never wanted that in the first place.
You shouldn't blindly empower your opponent if you're unsure about the consequences. Most people in Europe know that Russia uses natural gas and oil for political purposes. A real partner doesn't push their political agenda in business, and if they do, it's clear they aren't doing it for your benefit. Russia didn't give money to Merkel, Sarkozy, and Schröder out of affection; they did it to weaken Germany and the EU.
And before Georgia, there were Transinistria, Abkchazia, and Chechen massacres.
Even before Ukraine, no forgiveness for the Butcher of Beslan.
I dont care if they did it, it was a good target. Actually I am impressed if they did it. The stories movies are made of. But is the evidence really strong?
Just "thank you Tom". Again. And again...
The Germans need to let it go ...Seriously .
I sympathize with the sentiment but the judiciary will keep treating it as a crime against private property and the judiciary is independent from the government.
Ukraine is fighting for survival. Just as Croatia fought for its survival in 1991. Russian imperialism is like Serbian and must be defeated
Is there any particular reason the German secret service can't have destroyed the Nordstream themselves? All in all, it was a blackmailing weapon at the hands of an enemy country that have been running hybrid warfare for years by now against both Germany and it's allies, and Putin is unshamely proud of West Germany past (murders and massacres included) to the point of building statues to Stalin and rewriting history books.
If I was a German military, I would have plant the bombs myself.
If Germany neutered it’s secret service. Not something the German government could pull off at this time.
While you are right concerning the dependency of Germany in the years up to 2023 on Russian energy resources including nuclear fuel supply for the nuclear reactors, you are imho wrong in a few conclusions.
First, the main reason was the price of Russian energy and lack of own resources, which led to buying Russian and the now ongoing transformation to renewable energy. Even a decision to build new reactors starting in 2014 would have changed nothing on that problem for years to come, because those new reactors would start to produce energy maybe ten years from now or even much later and to top it with Russian nuclear fuel.
Second and most important , not Germany or any German politician is accusing Ukraine, it is wrong in two terms. According to the German Law system the General Attorney has the obligation to search for the culprit, and accuse this suspect on his own doing, no politician could hinder him to do so.
According German law such a suspect can only be a person, not a country, and as such a suspect has been identified the General Attorney takes all his available tools to reach out to this suspect to trial him in a German court, all in his rights and duty, and no politician could prevent that. The court would then decide wether the suspect would be guilty and what fine would be appropriate.
Quite a difference to what you said, and to sum up, nobody here in Germany cares about that, not the majority of the people and not the majority of the politicians within or outside the government. Germany will stay with the people in Ukraine, as difficult and lengthy some decisions had been and how tough the financial burden will be.